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The 2025 Grand National

Ian_Davies said:
16 completed, but, of those that didn't, only three fell, one was brought down and the other unseated.

13 horses pulled up.

The race is still a tough test, but it's the 4m2f run at an end-to-end gallop, not the easier obstacles that have facilitated this, that make it tough for runners nowadays.

I like the modern Grand National.

Possibly unlike some that lament the changes, I don't yearn for the days when half the field departed on the first circuit.

The winner ran off 163, the runner up off 167 and the third off 163.

I've seen lower-rated horses make the frame in Cheltenham Gold Cups.

It's a quality race nowadays.

Roll on the 2026 renewal.
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Yes you were right weeks ago when you said it was the Gold Cup for stayers.

There's more to be learned from today's renewal.

I think it confirmed that Noble Yeats was a bit of a freak result for a 7yo. Iroko was the only one this year to complete (I think) and Meetingofthewaters ran some way better than last year when he looked like a non-stayer.

The Bobbyjo again proved the best trial.

I've written myself a note in large letters: DO NOT BACK ANTE-POST BAR BOBBYJO RUNNERS AND WAIT FOR THE FINAL DECS TO SEE THE PREVAILING CONDITIONS. There must have been five or six I backed that I should have ignored, just because I wanted them onside at a price.

Even Nick Rockett, which I got 'only' 20s about on the morning of the Bobbyjo ended up going off some way longer.
 
Desert Orchid said:
Yes you were right weeks ago when you said it was the Gold Cup for stayers.

There's more to be learned from today's renewal.

I think it confirmed that Noble Yeats was a bit of a freak result for a 7yo. Iroko was the only one this year to complete (I think) and Meetingofthewaters ran some way better than last year when he looked like a non-stayer.

The Bobbyjo again proved the best trial.

I've written myself a note in large letters: DO NOT BACK ANTE-POST BAR BOBBYJO RUNNERS AND WAIT FOR THE FINAL DECS TO SEE THE PREVAILING CONDITIONS. There must have been five or six I backed that I should have ignored, just because I wanted them onside at a price.

Even Nick Rockett, which I got 'only' 20s about on the morning of the Bobbyjo ended up going off some way longer.
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Also all the so called experts seemed to concentrate on form in previous runnings of the race.
Four of the last five winners had not set foot on Aintree before the race.
 
Desert Orchid said:
Yes you were right weeks ago when you said it was the Gold Cup for stayers.

There's more to be learned from today's renewal.

I think it confirmed that Noble Yeats was a bit of a freak result for a 7yo. Iroko was the only one this year to complete (I think) and Meetingofthewaters ran some way better than last year when he looked like a non-stayer.

The Bobbyjo again proved the best trial.

I've written myself a note in large letters: DO NOT BACK ANTE-POST BAR BOBBYJO RUNNERS AND WAIT FOR THE FINAL DECS TO SEE THE PREVAILING CONDITIONS. There must have been five or six I backed that I should have ignored, just because I wanted them onside at a price.

Even Nick Rockett, which I got 'only' 20s about on the morning of the Bobbyjo ended up going off some way longer.
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It was ante-post bets that contributed to this being my worst National punting-wise for years. Only bet on the day was my only return (a place with Iroko) and I had ante post bets on Intense Raffles and Vanillier neither of which I’d have gone near today.
 
Someone said in commentary 'Dickinsonesque'.

Dickinson was a brilliant trainer too but it helps when you have the quality material to work with.

I've done a quick back-of-fag-pack calculation and, on my figures, the first two will emerge with higher ratings than the Gold Cup winner. I don't think that has happened before.

That is not to say either of them would have won the Gold Cup since they might not have hit that rating at the Gold Cup distance but it shows the kind of horses he has in his yard.

I also wonder what kind of impact this might have for future races. Will owners of good handicappers end up thinking there's no point banging their heads against a brick wall trying to beat Mullins?
 
Desert Orchid said:
Someone said in commentary 'Dickinsonesque'.

Dickinson was a brilliant trainer too but it helps when you have the quality material to work with.

I've done a quick back-of-fag-pack calculation and, on my figures, the first two will emerge with higher ratings than the Gold Cup winner. I don't think that has happened before.

That is not to say either of them would have won the Gold Cup since they might not have hit that rating at the Gold Cup distance but it shows the kind of horses he has in his yard.

I also wonder what kind of impact this might have for future races. Will owners of good handicappers end up thinking there's no point banging their heads against a brick wall trying to beat Mullins?
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That’s just what I’ve been thinking. I’m worried about the effect it will have on racing over here. I guess it all started when Graham Wylie moved his horses to Mullins after Howard lost his licence. I felt a bit aggrieved at that because with Ferdy Murphy gone ( or did he leave afterwards?) there didn’t seem to be any trainers in the north that could compete at Cheltenham or Aintree. What hope is there for small trainers? I can’t see an end to the Mullins dominance. Although there will surely come a point where his many owners aren’t happy about being beaten by a horse from the same stable? I’ve been wondering about how JP is feeling tonight? And I don’t think Paul Townend is over the moon at coming second.
 
The time suggested to me there was zero "Soft" in the officially "Good to Soft" ground.

I've no doubt they watered heavily, but the track has soaked it up like a sponge during what had been a sunny and breezy week.
 
Good morning to you all,

I sometimes wonder why I bet on the Grand National, I guess living in Liverpool makes it difficult not to.

I must have lost a fair few bob over the years, always the bridesmaid hardly ever the bride since Crisp (1973). At least this year my losses were not so great, so all being well I will be able to employ my two observation rule next year.

Well done to everyone who won on Nick Rockett 👏.
 
moehat said:
That’s just what I’ve been thinking. I’m worried about the effect it will have on racing over here. I guess it all started when Graham Wylie moved his horses to Mullins after Howard lost his licence. I felt a bit aggrieved at that because with Ferdy Murphy gone ( or did he leave afterwards?) there didn’t seem to be any trainers in the north that could compete at Cheltenham or Aintree. What hope is there for small trainers? I can’t see an end to the Mullins dominance. Although there will surely come a point where his many owners aren’t happy about being beaten by a horse from the same stable? I’ve been wondering about how JP is feeling tonight? And I don’t think Paul Townend is over the moon at coming second.
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WPM believes in the equality of every owner.
Hence if your horse has a chance in a race , it will run and JP. Ricci Giggi or anyone else won't stop it running.
Very few other trainers apart from Michael Dickinson, who once said he would gladly run his horses against each other with no opposition , have that degree of independence.
I also think the Dawn Run saga with his father , brother and Mrs Hill had a profound effect on him/ I don't remember Willie riding a horse of Mrs Hill's but stand corrected on that.
Those that don't like it can leave, simple as.
 
Was Nolan the rider who appeared extremely active on his horse going to the last fence while the horse appeared to be in reverse gear? I actually thought the horse had gone lame.

I only caught that at the side-on replay and got a real shudder of anger looking at it. This was, if ever we've had one, a classic example of a horse who had clearly given everything and then some more and deserved to be looked after.

I fear the horse may never be right again.

The rider in question deserves six months.




Behind bars.


.
 
While this is all fresh in our minds, and with what they know now, can I ask members to share their approach to selecting horses next year ?
 
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Alex said:
While this is all fresh in our minds, and with what they know now, can I ask members to share their approach to selecting horses next year ?
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"You can give them a sample dish, but NEVER give them the recipe!" 😂

I could be even more facetious than usual and say, "I picked it because I thought it had a nice name" - but that would be rude.

I'm wary of kneejerk reaction to one result - and I got 25s I Am Maximus last year and he did nothing but shorten - but I'd want a bloody good reason to be backing anything ante-post next year, especially if it's ground dependent, because what this year has taught me is that, while they will no doubt try to deliver ground that's on the soft side, whether they actually accomplish their objective is uncertain.

And if I bet anything progressive for it that takes in the Cheltenham Gold Cup along the way, I'd best back it at Prestbury Park too because, if it wins there, I'm far from certain to see it at Aintree! 😂
 
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Desert Orchid said:
And for all the talk abut the fast conditions, it wasn't a fast time, slower than Noble Yeats.
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It was still a fast time. That assement is mostly incorrect. Adjust for weight and Nick rockett has run as fast if not faster than Noble yeats did depending on your view of distance for weight carried. Any Second now may come out on top. Those 2 were 20 lengths clear of the opposition which points to Any Second now being an exceptional horse in his prime and Noble yeats being incredibly well handicapped at the time. You could take a view that every other runner was poor in the race but that's unlikely.

Yesterday 12 lengths covered the first 7. 22 lengths covered the first 9 . Now either they are all very good or the ground was faster than gd-sft.

I'm not saying you're wrong but that sort of assessment of the time of a race to assess the ground is a guess.
 
Alex said:
While this is all fresh in our minds, and with what they know now, can I ask members to share their approach to selecting horses next year ?
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I really fancied Percival Legallois. However, as I mentioned on here, it bothered me that he’d fallen twice and unseated once. I also read on the OLBG stats page that Mark Walsh didn’t have the best of records in the race and that Gavin Cromwell didn’t seem to have much experience of training horses for long distance races. And then, strange one this, colours to avoid; one of them being bb, which I didn’t know so I looked at all the horse colours and, guess what. Poor old Percy is bb ( whatever that is). At least a 7 year old didn’t win again. And horses do need more than 2 runs in a season and it’s vital that they don’t miss their prep run. Of course, I’ll still probably ignore all that if it suits me!
 
Desert Orchid said:
Someone said in commentary 'Dickinsonesque'.

Dickinson was a brilliant trainer too but it helps when you have the quality material to work with.

I've done a quick back-of-fag-pack calculation and, on my figures, the first two will emerge with higher ratings than the Gold Cup winner. I don't think that has happened before.

That is not to say either of them would have won the Gold Cup since they might not have hit that rating at the Gold Cup distance but it shows the kind of horses he has in his yard.

I also wonder what kind of impact this might have for future races. Will owners of good handicappers end up thinking there's no point banging their heads against a brick wall trying to beat Mu
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Is that your assessment of WPM.
 
I would consign "Dickinsonesque" to the same bin I'd put "the new Frankel" or the new whatever in.

It's lazy, limited, media cliche, beloved of those (of which there are all too many) incapable of thinking outside their own narrow frame of reference.

I'd say it was "Mullinsesque" for Mullins is the bloke's name.

There will always be cycles of dominance in any sphere and I'd say that, like making that first million, subsequent success becomes easier.

Alex Ferguson's greatest achievement might have been to break the Old Firm stranglehold with Aberdeen - at Old Trafford he had a rather bigger player budget.

You could say that Aidan O'Brien achieved most in terms of results relative to resources when he trained Istabraq.

And yes, Mullins operates from a position of great strength nowadays too.

But they all had to get there in the first place to get the budget.
 
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LUKE said:
Is he The Goat -better than Aidan or Vincent.
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Well you certainly have to put him in the mix.
Ideally you would like to see all these horses spread around. He is phenomenal at what he does though, with a great team around him. How can you not like Willie Mullins either.
Seeing him yesterday struggling for words. A day like no other. Nothing can top that.
 
Alex said:
While this is all fresh in our minds, and with what they know now, can I ask members to share their approach to selecting horses next year ?
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My approach next year should be to spend no time whatsoever looking at the race, just watch it and enjoy it, possibly have a small interest. I spent a considerable time looking at and thinking about the race, but as with every National since the 2013 changes, had a pitiful return (small ew on Meetingotthewaters) from reasonable investment. Prior to 2013, this had been a very productive race for me.

On Friday night, I spent 3 or 4 minutes studying a 5 runner chase at Newcastle, to produce a 25/1 winner (25p rule 4, after non-runner reduced field to 4).

Will I learn this lesson? I doubt it very much.
 


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