The Champion Chase 2010

Bar the Bull said:
Cantoris' points compromised by being in with the Murphy stable.
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Good point, but it either suggests I've been blinded, genuinely know a little more about the horse than those outside the yard, or a bit of both. I'm sure it's a bit of both, as it was with Brave Inca but I can tell you one thing, the public did not have the same information the owners did for the years Brave Inca ran. We knew when he was fit and when he wasn't, what his targets were (they changed from year to year) and how his training patterns changed to respond to that. The public did not have that info and I feel it's the same with Big Zeb and Voler La Vadette. Hamm has made the point that others don't come on and share the knowledge they have of horses they know in yards, well maybe that's my problem....i share too much.....but some like hearing it.
 
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I am and was happy to say I'm wrong. Same with Sizing Europe, and plenty others. I just don't he's the second coming. What is really frustrating is the whole 'he needs to be fresh' argument.
 
Cantoris said:
Good point, but it either suggests I've been blinded, genuinely know a little more about the horse than those outside the yard, or a bit of both. I'm sure it's a bit of both, as it was with Brave Inca but I can tell you one thing, the public did not have the same information the owners did for the years Brave Inca ran. We knew when he was fit and when he wasn't, what his targets were (they changed from year to year) and how his training patterns changed to respond to that. The public did not have that info and I feel it's the same with Big Zeb and Voler La Vadette. Hamm has made the point that others don't coe on and share the knowledge they have of horses they know in yards, well maybe that's my problem....i share too much.....but some like hearing it.
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Cantoris,

No offence, but you didn't share anything which Murphy didn't himself.

Fair dues to you with Brave Inca, am sure it was the ride of a lifetime, and knowing the ins and outs as an owner with a horse like that must have been exciting.

However, Murphy said everything publicly which you posted here, and I ignored him just as much as you ... :D
 
Jaysus lads calm down. I was only trying to pull the piss out of ye.

I appreciate the info from the stable, Cantoris.

And Hamm, I don't think anybody is trying to say he's the second coming. 10l behind Moscow. Sure that makes him only the 5th or 6th best 2m chaser in the past 7 years.
 
What I have learned from this thread is that if you put FACTS in block capitals, and sometimes bold it as such..FACTS..then they are definitely true. If only Blair and co had presented their WMB argument pre Iraq war with the use of bolding and capital letters then there'd be no case to answer,

To be honest, having been a persistent offender of bias towards Irish horses, I now believe the roles have shifted somewhat and, given the Irish heavy nature of this forum, what we have now is people gleefully trying to smack down the Irish horses, with the simple defence of 'Irish bias' from others as their principle justification for taking an alternative view.

Considering the 1-2 in the Champion Chase were Irish horses, and the Arkle winner is Irish trained, I would hope that two mile chases in Ireland next year aren't dismissed as 'soft' ...but they will be, of course. Although I accept that the pace won't be as exacting.

I can't see how Kalahari King would beat FPTP again over 2 miles around Cheltenham. It's a classic racing amateurs mistake to assume that a horse finishing fast would win the day next time around. It's easy to be wise in hindsight, but Kalahari clearly doesn't have the style of racing [or is it class] to travel prominently in such a race and jump well enough to genuinely compete. In both the Arkle and particularly the Champion he struggled to go with them early doors and then stays on...FPTP's connections, on the other hand, were bemoaning the fact afterwards that the pace wasn't strong enough. He is evidently a superior horse to Kalahari King - and is underestimated because he rarely gets to race on his preferred ground. But the evidence of their two meetings at Cheltenham is clear enough to me. Indeed, I would go as far to describe it as a FACT that FPTP will always beat KK around that track in that kind of race.

And if someone on this thread doesn't understand the difference between bouncing back from an easy hurdle race on good ground and a chase on heavy ground, then they should probably give up on the game....
 
Bobbyjo said:
And if someone on this thread doesn't understand the difference between bouncing back from an easy hurdle race on good ground and a chase on heavy ground, then they should probably give up on the game....
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Looking at the comments from the 2 races:

Hurdle race - 'strongly pressed 2 out, ridden and kept on well from before the last'. Days to next race - 15.

Chase - 'challenged 3 out, eased to lead run-in, not extended'. days to next race - 27.

Any fair judge could see based on the above that, if anything, Big Zeb had a harder race over hurdles. Also, I am ignoring the rather simplistic view that soft ground = harder race.

I suggest if anyone should think about giving up the game it is you with your ill informed opinion on the above 2 races ...
 
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And if anyone watched the Tingle creek again (which i just have...) they would see that Big Zebs failure in that race was down to jumping errors which were either too deliberate or plain clumsy (first railway fence) rather than "never really travelling"

Sandown two milers expose poor jumping more than most courses. Twist Magic took them along and exposed the mistakes.

It was not a below par performance. it was a par performance at a searching course by a horse with jumping issues..at that time at least
 
I disagree - I thought he was lifeless and looked basically slow from the off. He did not he race keenly which is something he always does.

He has jumped around Cheltenham, Leopardstown and Punchestown - we do not need him to prove it at Sandown. Even when he has fallen in the past it has generally been because of a howler rather than lots of poor jumping. At Sandown he was just ponderous jumping and traveling.


clivex said:
And if anyone watched the Tingle creek again (which i just have...) they would see that Big Zebs failure in that race was down to jumping errors which were either too deliberate or plain clumsy (first railway fence) rather than "never really travelling"

Sandown two milers expose poor jumping more than most courses. Twist Magic took them along and exposed the mistakes.

It was not a below par performance. it was a par performance at a searching course by a horse with jumping issues..at that time at least
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Ehhh, yes 'we' do need him to prove it at Sandown. The Tingle Creek is the second best 2 mile chase in NH, so to be considered the best of your generation you would need to be running in it and winning it.
 
Well there was lots of poor jumping at Sandown, thats for sure. He was with the pack until the mistakes and not in the slightest bit niggled.

Any 2 mile chaser that cannot cope with the quick fences at Sandown is never going to be considered best of generation. Hes failed once and we will have to see if its any different next time.
 
I would almost go as far as to say Twist Magic around Sandown that day was probably the best 2 mile performance of this season, and possibly last as well - he was exceptional (and I say this as the only person in a group that day that didn't back him!) and it was a long and easy 15 lengths back to Forpady.
 
clivex said:
Hes failed once and we will have to see if its any different next time.
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I'd be amazed if you ever see Big Zeb at Sandown again. Does not fit into his schedule which will be Navan, Leopardstown, Punchestown, Cheltenham, Punchestown.
 
Hamm said:
Ehhh, yes 'we' do need him to prove it at Sandown. The Tingle Creek is the second best 2 mile chase in NH, so to be considered the best of your generation you would need to be running in it and winning it.
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So does Twist Magic's woeful record at Cheltenham suddenly make him an ordinary chaser or can we accept that Sandown suits him, he's top class on his day, with the right conditions and leave it at that??
 
You make sense in very few of your posts and this is another.

I don't know what you are trying to say..
 
Surely anything before and after Cheltenham is part of the phony war that is NH racing.
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I dont think anyone who saw Moscow Flyer/Azerty/wellchief Tingle Creek would say that

Well, if thats Big Zebs schedule then they are always going to leave themselves open to the accusation that they avoided the number two race NH 2 mile chase run over the most exciting and perhaps challenging circuit in the sport
 
this is getting silly now

Where has anyone claimed that twist magic is on a par with master Minded or moscow flyer? We all know his limitations and his strengths
 
Well you seem to think that the best 2m performance was by Twist Magic at Sandown, but he cannot deliver at Cheltenham, so therefore he should not be considered the best of his generation. The latter is what you say about Big Zeb if he cannot win at Sandown. So the same should hold true for Twist Magic who cannot perform at Cheltenham. I think this is a flawed approach as we all know some tracks and ground suit some horses better than others. Twist Magic likes Sandown and Ascot and will always achieve most around there and not Cheltenham, for whatever reason. Just becuase you cannot win on one track should not detract from a horse that regularly does it on other tracks.
 
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