The confessions of a forum addicit

Clivex, my critisisms of certain aspects of the west aren't exactly a full blown damnation of capitalism, moreover an appreciation that many things including the web, are much more harder to understand in terms of their actual social value to society, as opposed to the raw pound sign they produce for our capitalist country. As for my mum. She came from a pitman miners village in newcastle in the 60's, and apart from her weakness, that of ciggies which now results in her having the lung disease of copd, she (despite what she sometimes says) has lived an interesting life and experienced a lot. Her pearls of wisdom are usually spot on and she has definately punched above her weight in life for the upbringing and experience she had as a child brought up in a cockroach ridden house, the daughter of an abusing father. That said, i think ultimately her theory is more about the people who only think of themselves and then complain about their lives, rather than a particular message of being a halo christian 24/7.
 
That sounds like a winner, Hamm - a few months in Paris, with pay! The Trip Advisor seems to be well regarded by users. Don't forget to pop into the French Embassy and grab any amount of free literature before you go, including street maps. If there is a French restaurant or bistro near you, it might be worth your while announcing your plans and seeing if any of the staff - if they're actually French, of course - come from Paris, and could recommend to you especially nice places to eat. I'll envy you the open-air antiques markets and the general cafe culture, even if it does all cost an arm and a leg. And you must visit the Moulin Rouge!
 
I'm sure councilling serves a purpose. I'm just perplexed as to the whole anti-depressant thing. If people had emotions/feelings in their lives that were hard to cope with, then to me that is something they should be learning to deal with. That is surely what will be the making of strong people. Modern day cience has taken humanity far in evolution, but the medicalisation of society, and prescribing of anti-depressants, well i wouldn't use the term 'wrong' in this scenario, but i am nowhere near sure it is a good course to take. This is where i would link it to the modern era of technology. Is it helping people develop emotional strenth which people should need or being used by to kill it?
 
krizon said:
That sounds like a winner, Hamm - a few months in Paris, with pay! The Trip Advisor seems to be well regarded by users. Don't forget to pop into the French Embassy and grab any amount of free literature before you go, including street maps. If there is a French restaurant or bistro near you, it might be worth your while announcing your plans and seeing if any of the staff - if they're actually French, of course - come from Paris, and could recommend to you especially nice places to eat. I'll envy you the open-air antiques markets and the general cafe culture, even if it does all cost an arm and a leg. And you must visit the Moulin Rouge!
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Yes, very lucky. Just about got accommodation sorted out, and now trying to work out the best way to meet French women. A lot to sort out but starting to look forward to it.
 
Well, some folks have a better emotional strength than others, Marble, just as some people are physically stronger or more intelligent, or more beautiful/handsome. Some people are simply better at something than others, no matter what it is. If you had, let's say, a leg weakened by polio, your doctor would probably fit it with a brace to help you walk better. If you lost your teeth because of them being weak, your dentist would give you a nice plastic set. If you found you couldn't cope with a particular situation and were plunged into despair, you might be given drugs to help your system rebalance itself. No difference among those situations - there's a bit of a problem, and there is a remedy.

As for depression, then that can be an extremely debilitating condition when it is known as 'clinical depression'. It isn't just feeling fed up or a bit sad. It is a long-term and severe sense of utter pointlessness, and it takes a lot of lives every year. It's often linked to what used to be called manic-depressive illness, but which is now termed bipolar disorder. One day you can be wild with energy, far too bright and unnaturally cheerful, and a few days later you can crash into a dark lethargy, refuse to answer the phone, see people, go to work.

I had an employee, a very pretty young woman, who suffered from this condition. She had to be medicated in order to redress what is very often an imbalance of natural chemicals in the brain. But the big problem is sometimes getting the person to accept they have a problem. The easy bit is medicating them - the difficult bit is encouraging them to get help. In this young woman's case, she had locked herself in her house, hadn't eaten for several days (and there wasn't a scrap of food in her house), not shown up for work, and refused to answer her phone. It was very hard work to get her to open her front door to three of us, all wheedling and pleading for her to just let us speak to her. I'm pleased to say that medication put her on the right track - she took a few months away from the job, but she returned to it, and has been very healthy for many years ever since. The trigger for her depression was a broken love affair, where she had been very roughly let down by a long-time lover whom she had thought she was to marry. Some women might just vent their disappointment by trashing his car, finding a quick replacement, or going on a shopping binge. Her mind, however, could only fret despairingly and consider her whole life ruined and lost. The dark thoughts became obsessive, with no sense of perspective. Talking was out of the question, since she simply would not. If a little pill - and often some psychiatric counselling - can help someone like that to get back on track, then why not? I don't see fixing a broken mind as any different to fixing a broken leg. Both need to be repaired, and there are the means to do it.
 
Hamm, there's a rather worthy web called http://www.paris.angloinfo.com (or AngloInfo.com) with all sorts of clubs, organisations, info on working in Paris, blah, blah. It seems geared to try and help expats fit into the Parisian scene and it might be of some use to you. Bonne chance!
 
Well guess we'll have to agree to disagree as they say krizon. Nice debating/talking/writing to you though. For me, i have no issue with the woman you mention gaining help via medication. My concern is on the bigger picture, and why we, our children and our society generally can't deal with these occurances without the help of external things. Who knows, one day they might not even be there in these debt laden times. I'd be very interested to see what the levels of consumption are of prescription drugs in the major developing countries: the china's, india's, brazils and russia's of the world. My guess is lower than us, although that doesn't of course stop western pharmaceuticals exploiting young indian children for their trials, as was documented in the independant a few months ago. They still have the hands of the pharmaceuticals on them in that way i see. Anyway, once again, thanks krizon.
 
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Hamm said:
Yes, very lucky. Just about got accommodation sorted out, and now trying to work out the best way to meet French women.
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Not constantly talking bollocks about Spirit Son will probably help. :blink:

Seriously though - good luck with it. Best city in Europe is Paris. Where are you going to be living?
 
Finally, something we agree on.

Cheers. Near Bastille. I thought being there for only 6 months meant i would have to go through an agency, but spent the last few days getting in touch with holiday rental owners about longer stays at better rates and it seems to have worked. Bastille should be good for bars, cafes of Oberkampf, the 3rd, 4th and 5th are close by as well.

Any favourite areas or haunts?
 
krizon said:
Hamm, there's a rather worthy web called http://www.paris.angloinfo.com (or AngloInfo.com) with all sorts of clubs, organisations, info on working in Paris, blah, blah. It seems geared to try and help expats fit into the Parisian scene and it might be of some use to you. Bonne chance!
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Cheers, i've seen it and now apartment searching near over, i need to start looking at this site and other similar ones. Need to make an effort to limit the expat scene comfort, as that was a big mistake i made in Geneva.
 
Well, if you want me knocking on me doctors door tomorrow asking for happy pills it's reading about someone living in Paris for 6 months. I am so, so jealous [especially now they're got a Marks and Spencers there].
 
Marble - I'm glad you gave me the chance to exercise a few of the surviving little grey cells! I do love a good old discussion, where it's not necessary to agree or disagree - people have all sorts of ideas and opinions, and unless they're factually dead wrong, they're always worth considering. I've often changed my mind (no, really!) after someone's put forward a different viewpoint, something that I might not have considered before.

You wondered how some other countries cope? Don't forget that both China and India have a very well-researched and proven homeopathic path of remedies and treatments, which they have used for centuries. From remedial massages, to utilising natural herbs for infusions to be drunk or eaten, often regulated by Moon phases and things our doctors would boggle at, like your Zodiac sign determining when an operation or treatment would be most or least beneficial to you. They use ingredients which form the basis for many Western world drugs, like valerian (Valium), cocaine (pretty much everything ending in 'aine'), opium, for drugs to relieve tension and pain, while using a huge variety of flower essences, grasses, parts of trees, animal bones, hair, and organs for everything from constipation to heart and liver problems.

Don't forget, too, that there are millions of people all round the world adopting and adapting ancient practices to enhance their health with Yoga, Tai Chi, Reiki, Shiatsu, Alexander Technique, Pilates, meditation, Rolfing, Primal Scream therapy, to name some, along with dietary choices such as fruitarian, vegan, veggie, etc. It seems that there is an almost infinite amount of ways in which we, the human species, seek to maintain or improve our health!
 
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Does anyone else have any Barefoot Doctor' books, about Taoist techniques for self enlightenment? Supposedly the original barfoot doctors 'travelled to the ancient Orient healing people and lifting their spirits'. Must dig the books off my shelf, blow the cobwebs off them and give them a read again. With a glass of sherry.
 
Make that two glasses, Moehat, and your spirits will become enlightened even faster! I don't have the books, but have heard of them. The big movement towards self-exploration seemed to have kicked off in Cali-for-ni-ay in the late 60s, gained a lot of ground through the 70s, and has now snowballed into any amount of 'alternative' beliefs - guardian angels, dream catchers, shamanism, smudging, you name it. There is definitely a sincerity in trying to locate a spiritual or non-material, non-physical reality, the difference being that now people (in the West - good old West!) aren't still stoned to death or imprisoned for such beliefs or explorations. They are still murdered for them, though, in rigidly-controlled countries where religious dogma refutes free thinking. Heaven forfend we should all get such ideas!
 
Feel like adding a small personal experience to this debate as it's something I feel very strongly about. On the subject of medication.


I have no problem with any medication being prescribed, if it's for the correct reason and not just for reasons unknown. Here goes....

From being someone who loved & still does love to run, this summer I went from being able to run between 2 and 13 miles at any given time and call it a jog, to being unable to walk quarter of a mile up the road, within the space of a couple of weeks. Thinking something not right, obviously, saw a dr.

First question asked of me was I depressed? I stated very clearly that no I wasn't depressed, just p*ssed off at very suddenly not being able to do things I love. That went over dr head and response was "no I think you're depressed". Like I'd never even spoken!! I very clearly, calmly and firmly restated that I was not depressed, but completly depleted of energy and wanted to know why. Dr decided on blood test.

Anyway, cut long story short, it turned out I was/am low in iron and seriously deficient in vit d (was a tenth of what it should be). Simple treatment of supplements.

However, had I agreed with dr that I was depressed, whilst feeling just knackered, I would have been taking anti depressants for the last 5 months, whilst the iron would carry on dropping and the vitamin d would have probably gone undetectable (if possible!!). By sticking to my guns and wanting to find a cause, not just treat symptoms (in dr opinion), I did at least get some answers. Still trying to find cause of low iron though. Am able to help aswell with diet and what not to eat at certain times (affects absorption of iron etc.) Still suffering now for it all and just dread to think where I'd be if I hadn't stuck to my guns.

I know I sound like I doc bashing now, given all their training and studying - but sometimes looking at the whole picture really does help. I am also a strong believer that no-one knows their body like the person themselves and they really should be listened to.

On the other hand, I do know of someone who was diagnosed with depression as a young teenager, put on meds for it and is now living a stable happy life. Individuals matter!

So after my little rant, getting it off my chest kind of debate, as I said I have no probs with medications being prescribed, if all for right reason.
 
Well done on sticking to your guns, Sue, and not feeling intimidated - although probably feeling royally patronised! There are a lot of things which affect our moods and behaviour - for example, it wasn't until my mother was in a care/nursing home, that the RGN there told me that many elderly people suffer from urnary tract infections, which lead to balance problems, and the falls which (like my mother's) notoriously put them into hospital and then, so often, care. But these also can mimic the symptoms of dementia, meaning that, if a urine stick test isn't done, the elderly can be assumed to be losing mental faculties where, in fact, all they need is a good dose of antibiotics to clear up a straightforward bodily infection.
 
suerunner said:
Feel like adding a small personal experience to this debate as it's something I feel very strongly about. On the subject of medication.


I have no problem with any medication being prescribed, if it's for the correct reason and not just for reasons unknown. Here goes....

From being someone who loved & still does love to run, this summer I went from being able to run between 2 and 13 miles at any given time and call it a jog, to being unable to walk quarter of a mile up the road, within the space of a couple of weeks. Thinking something not right, obviously, saw a dr.

First question asked of me was I depressed? I stated very clearly that no I wasn't depressed, just p*ssed off at very suddenly not being able to do things I love. That went over dr head and response was "no I think you're depressed". Like I'd never even spoken!! I very clearly, calmly and firmly restated that I was not depressed, but completly depleted of energy and wanted to know why. Dr decided on blood test.

Anyway, cut long story short, it turned out I was/am low in iron and seriously deficient in vit d (was a tenth of what it should be). Simple treatment of supplements.

However, had I agreed with dr that I was depressed, whilst feeling just knackered, I would have been taking anti depressants for the last 5 months, whilst the iron would carry on dropping and the vitamin d would have probably gone undetectable (if possible!!). By sticking to my guns and wanting to find a cause, not just treat symptoms (in dr opinion), I did at least get some answers. Still trying to find cause of low iron though. Am able to help aswell with diet and what not to eat at certain times (affects absorption of iron etc.) Still suffering now for it all and just dread to think where I'd be if I hadn't stuck to my guns.

I know I sound like I doc bashing now, given all their training and studying - but sometimes looking at the whole picture really does help. I am also a strong believer that no-one knows their body like the person themselves and they really should be listened to.

On the other hand, I do know of someone who was diagnosed with depression as a young teenager, put on meds for it and is now living a stable happy life. Individuals matter!

So after my little rant, getting it off my chest kind of debate, as I said I have no probs with medications being prescribed, if all for right reason.
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Interesting story, and hope you're feeling better/stronger.

I am very anti medication being prescribed to treat depression unless as a last resort. It often kills a large part of a person's personality, and as someone who has seen it several times up close, I don't believe it is often the best course of action. Everyone is too quick to take medication for anything in this day and age.
 
Sometimes you just drop below the level at which you can help yourself, and antidepressants bring back up to that level. That's what happened to me when my marriage broke up. I tried not to take anything for a long time, but realised that my doctor was right. When I couldn't walk for several months it was the internet that fixed me; by the time the NHS had sent me to a physio I'd been doing the exercises for months and was on the mend. The consultant that I eventually got to see was so negative and rude I wanted to shoot myself [and him!].
 
Doctors can get it badly wrong, even psychiatric consultants can get it wrong. The mind can be more complex to understand than any scientific or academic theory. I know there is a view held by some people that with all the medicinal evolutions (the anti depressants/psychotics etc), in terms of actually understanding the mind, we have not come that much further forward than the theories of sigmund freud some 100 years agn.
 
There is a much better knowledge of how the brain functions neurally, though, Marble. After all, Freud died in 1939 and has been discredited on several fronts since then, particularly on the grounds of pseud-science and sexism. You've been mentioning technology a lot, and it's technology which has surpassed the conjecture and guesswork in which psychoanalysts like Freud had to content themselves: we now have superb scanning equipment which has been able to pinpoint areas of the brain which are responsible for specific actions and emotional responses.

Freud was more interested in analysing why people thought as they did, and particularly in the area of dreaming. He didn't seek to 'cure' as psychiatrists might do through long-term work with disturbed patients. He didn't have recourse to today's therapies, whether those are pharmaceutical, surgical, or through practices such as regression (which was extremely faddish a decade or two ago, resulting in a number of so-called repressed memories being awoken).

So we have come a lot further forward in working with patients presenting with a number of psychoses. We certainly have moved on since the Victorian era, when it became the treatment of choice with manic-depressives and more serious psychopathies to drill into the frontal lobes and deaden the patient's ability to respond emotionally - the dreaded 'full frontal lobotomy' featured in films like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

There is much finer and specifically-targeted surgical finesse these days in working on neural pathways, for one example, and psychiatric therapies have evolved since the days when women were viewed as natural-born hysterics, largely dismissed with vials of laudanum to keep them sedated.
 
And electro-convulsive therapy was supposably an improvement from freud, yet there still to this day are people who can't remember their name from having it! A horrific treatment wiping out the memory.
 
krizon said:
Don't forget that both China and India have a very well-researched and proven homeopathic path of remedies and treatments, which they have used for centuries. From remedial massages, to utilising natural herbs for infusions to be drunk or eaten, often regulated by Moon phases and things our doctors would boggle at, like your Zodiac sign determining when an operation or treatment would be most or least beneficial to you. They use ingredients which form the basis for many Western world drugs, like valerian (Valium), cocaine (pretty much everything ending in 'aine'), opium, for drugs to relieve tension and pain, while using a huge variety of flower essences, grasses, parts of trees, animal bones, hair, and organs for everything from constipation to heart and liver problems.QUOTE]

I was thinking only the other night about a book published a couple of years ago by an Indian GP who also trained in ayurvedic medicine. He has combined modern Western, ancient Western and Indian medical teachings and uses astrology too. He uses the ancient categories of the "humours" of the body and bases his treatment on rebalancing the humours.

It looked a fascinating read but darned if I can remember what it was called.
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It wasn't Dr Ali, was it? I've got his Dr Ali's Nutrician Bible which is very much based on ayurvedic [glad you spelt it for me, redhead!] medicine. He was a bit discredited after something happened [can't remember what]. Used to be on This Morning a lot.
 
(Thanks, Redhead - didn't remember 'ayurvedic'!) Yes, that's rather along similar lines with acupuncture - rebalancing the energy paths in the body. I've had acupuncture a few times and what amazed me was when the practitioner pressed, say, part of the foot, which made me yelp (wussy!), he said that it wasn't actually the foot that was hurting, so much as a little work needed to be done on another part of the body - the foot being on the same neural, or energy, line.

The best 'cure' for something for me was with hypnotherapy, though, which I think I've bored folks with previously. What always fascinates me is who first thought, I know, I'll eat this, or boil that up and drink it, or try staring at a twirling crystal to change my thought patterns? There are so many books on all these subjects, but I don't see many about who first experimented - probably because most of these revelations weren't written down, but passed along verbally over eons of time.

Love the way this topic's turned from addiction to forums to addiction per se, and then into how to recover from them, and now into the world of complementary therapies! Great stuff, very, very interesting and thought-provoking.
 
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