The Derby & Irish Derby 2009

The only thing that would make sense would be if they'd actually gone back and re-rated the Derby, as Sea The Stars on 131, Fame & Glory on 128 and Rip Van Winkle on 128 would obviously now make sense - particularly with Crowded House going into the race on 120 back in 6th.

However that obviously can't be the case, as Masterofthehorse and Golden Sword still have ORs of 119...
 
Gareth Flynn said:
I don't understand why F&G's mark has been touched either.
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I'ts not unheard of for official ratings to be adjusted as the season unfolds between appearances (in fact it happens a fair bit). He had an OR of 127 and an RPR of 128 immediately after the Irish Derby. The official handicapper has now decided he has underrated Fame's performance and raise it 1lb to 128 (at least last I heard he was thinking about doing just this).
 
Gareth Flynn said:
The only thing that would make sense would be if they'd actually gone back and re-rated the Derby, as Sea The Stars on 131, Fame & Glory on 128 and Rip Van Winkle on 128 would obviously now make sense - particularly with Crowded House going into the race on 120 back in 6th.

However that obviously can't be the case, as Masterofthehorse and Golden Sword still have ORs of 119...
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They wouldn't re-rate the Derby now as the protagonists have run since and shown subsequent progression.
 
But what I don't understand is, what has happened since the Irish Derby to justify the change? Why does he need to even think about Fame & Glory's mark?
 
True Steve, but there's usually some logic for it. Raising Fame and Glory's rating but leaving Masterofthehorse and Golden Sword (in particular) untouched just smacks of making up the numbers to be what you want them to be.
 
If Sea The Stars wins the King George or Juddmonte International in good style, will F&G get put up a pound or two for that as well?
 
Gareth Flynn said:
But what I don't understand is, what has happened since the Irish Derby to justify the change? Why does he need to even think about Fame & Glory's mark?
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Simply second thoughts about getting them right in relative terms. These are unlikely to be what they'll be showing at the end of the season.

The International Classifications will then adjust again if necessary to square English, Irish, and the rest.
 
davidjohnson said:
True Steve, but there's usually some logic for it. Raising Fame and Glory's rating but leaving Masterofthehorse and Golden Sword (in particular) untouched just smacks of making up the numbers to be what you want them to be.
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It's more usual to adjust a winner's mark than those back in the field. The inference being that the winner has won with more in hand than he showed.
 
How on earth does Sea The Star's winning the Eclipse lead the Irish Handicapper to the conclusion that Fame And Glory won the Irish Derby with 1 lb more in hand than he gave him credit for at the time?

Has he only just got around to watching the video?
 
davidjohnson said:
How on earth does Sea The Star's winning the Eclipse lead the Irish Handicapper to the conclusion that Fame And Glory won the Irish Derby with 1 lb more in hand than he gave him credit for at the time?

Has he only just got around to watching the video?
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:D

Are they going to keep on raising Fame and Glory till they give him the rating they'd (or others) would like him to have?

The Eclipse has no bearing whatsoever on the Irish Derby form. Official ratings clearly no worth the paper they are written on.
 
I think the Derby is a very difficult race to rate because of the false run race.

golden Sword had the run of the race with an easy lead, but also this horse could have improved since then in the Irish Derby when the emphasis was more in stamina for him.


I have STS on Eclipse higher than FAG in the Irish Derby but that doesnt mean I would fancy Oxx horse ina 12f race.
 
I can see why you might want to question the decision, but this sort of this goes on all of the time. Particularly when one rating is struck in Ireland (or elsewhere) and the other here. The official handicappers refer with each other to smooth out any anomalies. As a result of this, whether on consideration of the Eclipse or on re-consideration of the Irish Derby, or both the handicappers compare notes and come up with a slight adjustment on occasion. These are ‘provisional ratings’ and subject to IC ratification at the end of the season.
 
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Gareth Flynn said:
If Sea The Stars wins the King George or Juddmonte International in good style, will F&G get put up a pound or two for that as well?
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No, and I do not think you seriously think that either.

I would imagine they went back and looked at the race and after the two three year olds dominated on Saturday.

Either way I am not going to get too worked over a single pound when the horse will be 130 plus by the end of the year:cool:
 
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I would imagine they went back and looked at the race and after the two three year olds dominated on Saturday.
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This makes even less sense - Fame & Glory was the only one raised from the Irish Derby. If he reckons he got the overall level of the race wrong, then fine, raise all the principles by a pound. But just the winner?

With nothing from the Irish Derby having come out since to trigger a re-assessment, why is he even thinking about Fame & Glory? It remains a bizarre decision.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
This makes even less sense - Fame & Glory was the only one raised from the Irish Derby. If he reckons he got the overall level of the race wrong, then fine, raise all the principles by a pound. But just the winner?

With nothing from the Irish Derby having come out since to trigger a re-assessment, why is he even thinking about Fame & Glory? It remains a bizarre decision.
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Fair enough, I don't know why really other than just re evaluating the ease of F&G victory.
 
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Gareth Flynn said:
This makes even less sense - Fame & Glory was the only one raised from the Irish Derby. If he reckons he got the overall level of the race wrong, then fine, raise all the principles by a pound. But just the winner?

With nothing from the Irish Derby having come out since to trigger a re-assessment, why is he even thinking about Fame & Glory? It remains a bizarre decision.
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Like I said above Gareth, this sort of this goes on all of the time when one rating is struck in Ireland (or elsewhere) and the other here. The official handicapper in Ireland refers to the OH here to smooth out any anomalies. The handicappers compare notes and come up with a slight adjustment (or agreement) on occasion (1lb in this case).

These are not set in stone but are ‘provisional ratings’ and subject to IC ratification at the end of the season.
 
Steve, I understand what you're getting at, and I'm sure it's pretty difficult for the two handicappers to keep everything straight when you have so many top class horses running in each other's jurisdictions, but I just don't see how it applies here.

Best I can come up with is that whilst having their meeting about how to go about rating the Eclipse, it was suggested by the BHA handicapper that the Irish handicapper didn't give Fame And Glory enough credit for the style of his win, and so the Irish handicapper decided yeah, maybe he has a point, and stuck him up a pound... which leads me to:

These are not set in stone but are ‘provisional ratings’ and subject to IC ratification at the end of the season.
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Indeed - so why bother fiddling with them by such small increments for no obvious reason? There's no practical reason to, unless Fame And Glory is secretly being laid out for the Ebor or something (!).
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Steve, I understand what you're getting at, and I'm sure it's pretty difficult for the two handicappers to keep everything straight when you have so many top class horses running in each other's jurisdictions, but I just don't see how it applies here.

Best I can come up with is that whilst having their meeting about how to go about rating the Eclipse, it was suggested by the BHA handicapper that the Irish handicapper didn't give Fame And Glory enough credit for the style of his win, and so the Irish handicapper decided yeah, maybe he has a point, and stuck him up a pound... which leads me to:



Indeed - so why bother fiddling with them by such small increments for no obvious reason? There's no practical reason to, unless Fame And Glory is secretly being laid out for the Ebor or something (!).
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I do have sympathy, not to say empathy, with what you are saying. I’m simply trying to give an explanation. I suppose they would say they are applying best endeavours to arrive at a fair working mark.
As you say, it is largely irrelevant at this stage, as I don’t expect either Fame or STS to be running in handicaps (…at least this season).:)
 
Irish Stamp said:
You'd think he'd be fine - Ouija Board had no problem with the 12f and it's fair to say he's more stoutly bred.

Fancy Black Bear Island and had a whisper for Sirgarfieldsobers too.
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Runs in a handicap off his new mark of 80 on Friday in a 0-80 handicap at Doncaster over 1m 4f. Neil Farley takes the ride taking off another 5lbs. Could it be Martin found the greatest certainty of all time 2 years ago?
 
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