By the end of the season the ratings will prove that Fame is every bit the equal of Sinndar. They are in a similar mould - middle-distance staying types. I just love Fame And Glory, he's got everything I look for in a thoroughbred. He has very pure ability. He ran contrary to his nature in the Derby and was thus prevented from fully expressing his natural strengths.
The Derby & Irish Derby 2009
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maythehorsebewithyou
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Sinndar's connections knew where his strengths lay though, over 12f in a true run race. They had the Arc as their end of season aim and did it properly with a prep in the Niel and a pacemaker to make sure there was some sort of pace. They are going down the wrong path IMO with Fame if they drop back to 10f..
This, imvho, is a 10/1 shot.
The very fact you have repeated how "Ballydoyle messed up their chance" and how poor Heffernan was on the horse at Epsom suggests you think the horse is capable of better than he showed that day at Epsom. If you think that is as good as he is, then I do not understand your references to their tactics and Heffernan.
The horse itself was not allowed to show his best...down to the jockey and tactics.....unfortunate for the horse to take the blame for that. Sinndar is actually a superb example...he would seriously have struggled to win his Derby if it was run in the manner of this year's renewal. He needed every inch of the test to get the better of Sakhee and co in his year.
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I think he is certainly better than his Derby form, but the fact remains Sea the Stars was also inconvenienced by the pace, pulling early but still winning very cosily.
He is no doubt a very good horse, but I think there is a tendancy by some to not accept Sea the Stars as better, and also that he in all probability will not turn out to be a great horse. He was off the bridle and struggling in the Irish Derby before his undoubted stamina kicked in and he reeled in Golden Sword and won well in the end, and was no doubt impressive in a staying sense.
While I recognise there are many here who are more knowledgeable and better judges than me, I strongly feel that to compare him and Sinndar would be a mistake but hopefully he'll line up in the Arc and we'll see. It would be no fun if I had the same opinion as yourself and Steve now, would it?
He is no doubt a very good horse, but I think there is a tendancy by some to not accept Sea the Stars as better, and also that he in all probability will not turn out to be a great horse. He was off the bridle and struggling in the Irish Derby before his undoubted stamina kicked in and he reeled in Golden Sword and won well in the end, and was no doubt impressive in a staying sense.
While I recognise there are many here who are more knowledgeable and better judges than me, I strongly feel that to compare him and Sinndar would be a mistake but hopefully he'll line up in the Arc and we'll see. It would be no fun if I had the same opinion as yourself and Steve now, would it?
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Almost an identical description of Sinndar's Irish Derby victory...the Curragh is such a test it does that to horses. Even High Chaparral looked in a bit of trouble at one stage.
I have never said Fame And Glory would definitely win in a rematch over 12 furlongs in a strongly run race, that is an assumption. But it is also an assumption that Sea The Stars would definitely win in a strongly run race as tests provided by Epsom and The Curragh were so far removed (visually and on times) from each other it is impossible to compare. You fancied Masterofthehorse to beat Fame And Glory (to lazy to drag up you quote but something about him being the obvious one due to interference etc) but the horse got absolutely thumped in an altogether different test.
An easy question to compare the Irish and Epsom Derbies is this...does anyone think Rip Van Winkle would have went close to placing in the Irish Derby as he did at Epsom?
I will be absolutely fascinated to see what happens if Sandown gets one of these heavy showers this weekend. In my view, if the trainer was 100% sure he was effective in a 12 furlong race he would have run last Sunday as the ground was fine (he won on softer going twice last season). My view is if it rains, Sea The Stars is still certain to line up.
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EC1
On a break
I don't think the ground is an issue as you say..its the ground allied to distance that was Oxx's concern last week..then again..if they water and it pees down..who knows?
Harbinger
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Does anyone think that Sea The Stars couldn't beat Mourayan by an easy 6 lengths?
(Seriously though, I'd love to know what Oxx and Kinane really made of that)
Has Oxx ever conflated the ground issue with the stamina issue? As I understand it, they're seperate, but I'm happy to be proved wrong with a quote.
Oxx clearly said last weekend on ATR that he wasn't 100% sure about Sea The Stars' stamina and that was why he wanted to run him in the Irish Derby: to find out more about him - not least because it might better determine future targets.
The ground may have dried out enough by race time to have been ok for STS, but he had already been pulled from the race over 24hrs previously (when the ground wasn't suitable) so it's pretty irrelevant. It's not as if Oxx woke up on the morning of the race and bottled it.
EC1
On a break
Oxx didn't bottle it..the Curragh messed up..Sandown have to be careful as well
My point was the betting was wrong, and I still believe that. It appears FAG is the better horse but Masterofthehorse clearly didn't run his race in the Irish Derby.
Yes, he won on soft twice last season but was not overly impressive in either. Good, quick ground is essential to Sea the Stars.
Rip Van Winkle would surely have beaten Mourayan, but the reason he wouldn't have been as close is he's a blatant non stayer and needs a sedate pace to get close to staying.
I remember Sinndar being a lot more impressive in his Irish Derby win.
I'll have a bagfull of that if you want to offer it! :lol:
If you mean the Irish Champion Stakes I'd be inclined to agree with you. I couldn't see STS beating Fame in the Arc though on going anything other than fast.
EC1
On a break
the race won't suit either horse though Steve..but we are still assuming that about STS purely down to how the trainer is treating STS
This was an article I was looking on the RP site for ages...Willoughby's views on the Epsom Derby:
James Willoughby 08 JUNE 2009
IN THESE pages nine years ago, the sectionals of John Oxx's other Derby winner made for a fascinating study. I described Sinndar's defeat of Sakhee as a race in which two special horses had survived a severely punishing gallop to record top-class performances on the clock.
Sea The Stars is almost certainly a racehorse of the same order, but his own Derby win could not have been more different in terms of pace.
As a result, we learned more about Galileo's half-brother from our senses than is evident from the bare facts of his performance.
In terms of time and form, Sea The Stars did not post the kind of effort on Saturday that we think is within his range.
The inference that he is an exceptional athlete can be made from a combination of his winning both the Stanjames.com 2,000 Guineas and the Investec Derby, and that he does nearly everything right in his races.
At the same time, as we giddily admire him as an individual, marvel at his accomplishments and wonder how high he might fly, a mood of greater sobriety is forced upon us when looking at the sectional times of his victory.
Sea The Stars probably used excessenergy in the opening furlongs of the Derby, and he probably had more left at the end, but he simply did not face the kind of adversity that he should have.
Coarsely expressed, the Derby turned into a downhill sprint in which a 2,000 Guineas winner was given a running start over the stayer Fame And Glory, and did not defeat him any further than when he started the dash.
In that article in 2000, I recorded the sectional times for Sinndar himself at three points around the course demarked by paths. These neatly sub-divide the Derby course into bite-sized chunks which make the race easily understandable from a pace standpoint.
Fortunately, Sea The Stars recorded a final time within 0.01sec of the other Oxx hero, giving the sectionals a tremendous descriptive quality in comparison. And the tale they have to tell is remarkable.
In the table, I have headed the columns as if the sectionals were taken to furlong poles. It does not matter they were not, so long as the same points were used; it is their relativity that is interesting, but I shall refer to them by their approximate measure for ease.
And this is the shocking truth: Sinndar covered the first five furlongs of theDerby more than five seconds faster than Sea The Stars. That is the difference between night and day in pace terms, an amazing disparity which perfectly highlights just how slowly the 2009 Derby was relative to the 2000 edition.
In the latter, Sinndar earned an outstanding Topspeed figure of 126, which implies he went at a solid pace all the way. But that was not the case this year; they went steadily to the highest point of the course, then came flying down the straight.
Sea The Stars probably did a little too much in the opening furlongs, even though the pace, set by the Aidan O'Brien-trained Golden Sword, was tepid. That he did not ruin his chance completely is a further indication that both horse and riderMick Kinane are splendidly professional individuals.
After about five furlongs - a furlong before the highest point of the course - the sectionals show that the pace of the 2009 Derby was much greater than in 2000.
This is partly because the leaders were winded in the 2000 renewal, though a comparison with other years does suggest O'Donoghue and Smullen kicked on a bit.
But where was Fame And Glory? At this point in the 2002 Derby won by HighChaparral, Johnny Murtagh had pushed up the winner from a position two lengths behind the brilliant miler Hawk Wing to stalk the pace, and from there he had launched the strong stayer in an all-out assault for the line.
This tactic was successful in drawing the sting out of Hawk Wing, but no such challenge was issued to this year's hero.
I am happy to admit that if Hawk Wing had enjoyed the same trip in his year as Sea The Stars, he would probably have bolted up.
It takes a jockey of individualism, bravado and experience to execute a tactic like that, but Murtagh was sadly on the back of Rip Van Winkle, instead of where he should have been.
It is unfair to Seamie Heffernan to say he should have launched Fame And Glory for the lead, but he surely should have been in front of Sea The Stars at some point. L ET'S put it this way: if Sea The Stars dares to line up in the Dubai Duty Free Irish Derby, he's likely to face a very different scenario.
Presumably, he would have it put up to him from an early stage. And if that is the consensus, then we can equally agree that it should have happened on Saturday.
In the event, Sea The Stars was more than a match for Golden Sword and Age Of Aquarius, but we already knew that. It is frustrating that the 2009 Derby was not an epic encounter between Sea The Stars and Fame And Glory because it simply was not a stern test of stamina.
In the estimation of the master trainer Oxx, Sea The Stars and Sinndar may be horses of quite polar athletic attributes, but both encountered the type of Derby that suited them. Right now, it seems that Sea The Stars could beat any horse in any circumstances, but those horses who are actually at this elevated level are much rarer than those who are simply perceived to be.
Watching the superb Sea The Stars in his pomp was a terrific sight, but we did not see him tested by having to run past Fame And Glory in a rare Derby when being further forward was an advantage.
Hopefully, that scenario may well be to come.
And now his views on the Irish Derby:
By James Willoughby 29 JUNE 2009
IT WAS perfect because it was just so simple. It was a moment of complete triumph for Aidan O'Brien and for Ballydoyle. And it showed.
The Dubai Duty Free Irish
Derby was a great celebration of the horse - before, during and after. There were great scenes when Fame And Glory paraded in front of the stands in triumph, Johnny Murtagh punching the air.
All it took was a proper gallop. There was no contortion of Fame And Glory'sathletic ability because the imposter Rip Van Winkle did not have to be catered for this time.
Instead, they let the true champion do his thing - with the stable jockey where he should have been at Epsom. As expected, Fame And Glory andMurtagh absolutely crushed them..
What a shame Sea The Stars was not around. He might have sprinted past Golden Sword at Epsom with more ease than Fame And Glory did here, but that was after a joke pace by Derby standards.
All the plaudits that went to Sea The Stars last time were deserved. His fleet of foot, the imperious way he comports himself, his utter superiority on the day.
But this time you had to give it to Fame And Glory. His brand of dominance is not of such high mettle, not of the finer kind, but honest, brutal, straightforward, unwavering.
He is everything we thought he was: a top-class staying machine who can survive any fractions, a relentless converter of every cell of energy into sustained pace to fire his slow-twitch muscles that will just fire all day. IT IS so sad that there is an obsession with speed in the thoroughbred.
Fame And Glory has plenty of it, just like Yeats, but their ability to pound out 12-second furlongs is gilded by precious stamina.
And that is fantastic to see in the four-time Gold Cup winner and the Irish Derby hero alike.
The real point about stamina is rarely made. It is not just about producing loveable old stayers who recall the old days; it is not just about preserving tradition and showing resolution against flimsy modernity, nor is it bowing to cheap, commercial trends..
There is no such physiological quantity as stamina. It is not transmitted as a gene, nor does it exist in the blood.
It is a collection of physical and mental attributes in the thoroughbred that enable it to carry its speed.
But this capacity is often closely related to the expression of what we perceive as courage and generosity: the ability to withstand pressure, to go through the pain barrier, to be resolute against the physical forces opposing forward motion.
Fame And Glory is the poster boy for this elite. Now, any horse who runs against him knows what they are going to get. If he meets Sea The Stars again, the champion won't get by on class for a second time.
"It was a very easy win," said Murtagh. "I knew from the way he had worked during the week that he was going to do something like this." Then, smiling at the perfect question from Gary O'Brien on At The Races, he added: "Sea The Stars is one-nil up, but it is a long year and I'm sure we'll meet again." From this, one senses Fame And Glory is a monster just waking up from youthful slumbers. That he has done a lot so far on natural talent, without his mind being sharpened in combat as much as it should.
And that is where his trainer excels. And where he will take over.
This was a great day for Irish racing. But there will be a better one when Fame And Glory gets another crack at Sea The Stars.
Make it a mile and a half, make it a mile and a quarter. It does not matter. Just make it a strong gallop.
James Willoughby 08 JUNE 2009
IN THESE pages nine years ago, the sectionals of John Oxx's other Derby winner made for a fascinating study. I described Sinndar's defeat of Sakhee as a race in which two special horses had survived a severely punishing gallop to record top-class performances on the clock.
Sea The Stars is almost certainly a racehorse of the same order, but his own Derby win could not have been more different in terms of pace.
As a result, we learned more about Galileo's half-brother from our senses than is evident from the bare facts of his performance.
In terms of time and form, Sea The Stars did not post the kind of effort on Saturday that we think is within his range.
The inference that he is an exceptional athlete can be made from a combination of his winning both the Stanjames.com 2,000 Guineas and the Investec Derby, and that he does nearly everything right in his races.
At the same time, as we giddily admire him as an individual, marvel at his accomplishments and wonder how high he might fly, a mood of greater sobriety is forced upon us when looking at the sectional times of his victory.
Sea The Stars probably used excessenergy in the opening furlongs of the Derby, and he probably had more left at the end, but he simply did not face the kind of adversity that he should have.
Coarsely expressed, the Derby turned into a downhill sprint in which a 2,000 Guineas winner was given a running start over the stayer Fame And Glory, and did not defeat him any further than when he started the dash.
In that article in 2000, I recorded the sectional times for Sinndar himself at three points around the course demarked by paths. These neatly sub-divide the Derby course into bite-sized chunks which make the race easily understandable from a pace standpoint.
Fortunately, Sea The Stars recorded a final time within 0.01sec of the other Oxx hero, giving the sectionals a tremendous descriptive quality in comparison. And the tale they have to tell is remarkable.
In the table, I have headed the columns as if the sectionals were taken to furlong poles. It does not matter they were not, so long as the same points were used; it is their relativity that is interesting, but I shall refer to them by their approximate measure for ease.
And this is the shocking truth: Sinndar covered the first five furlongs of theDerby more than five seconds faster than Sea The Stars. That is the difference between night and day in pace terms, an amazing disparity which perfectly highlights just how slowly the 2009 Derby was relative to the 2000 edition.
In the latter, Sinndar earned an outstanding Topspeed figure of 126, which implies he went at a solid pace all the way. But that was not the case this year; they went steadily to the highest point of the course, then came flying down the straight.
Sea The Stars probably did a little too much in the opening furlongs, even though the pace, set by the Aidan O'Brien-trained Golden Sword, was tepid. That he did not ruin his chance completely is a further indication that both horse and riderMick Kinane are splendidly professional individuals.
After about five furlongs - a furlong before the highest point of the course - the sectionals show that the pace of the 2009 Derby was much greater than in 2000.
This is partly because the leaders were winded in the 2000 renewal, though a comparison with other years does suggest O'Donoghue and Smullen kicked on a bit.
But where was Fame And Glory? At this point in the 2002 Derby won by HighChaparral, Johnny Murtagh had pushed up the winner from a position two lengths behind the brilliant miler Hawk Wing to stalk the pace, and from there he had launched the strong stayer in an all-out assault for the line.
This tactic was successful in drawing the sting out of Hawk Wing, but no such challenge was issued to this year's hero.
I am happy to admit that if Hawk Wing had enjoyed the same trip in his year as Sea The Stars, he would probably have bolted up.
It takes a jockey of individualism, bravado and experience to execute a tactic like that, but Murtagh was sadly on the back of Rip Van Winkle, instead of where he should have been.
It is unfair to Seamie Heffernan to say he should have launched Fame And Glory for the lead, but he surely should have been in front of Sea The Stars at some point. L ET'S put it this way: if Sea The Stars dares to line up in the Dubai Duty Free Irish Derby, he's likely to face a very different scenario.
Presumably, he would have it put up to him from an early stage. And if that is the consensus, then we can equally agree that it should have happened on Saturday.
In the event, Sea The Stars was more than a match for Golden Sword and Age Of Aquarius, but we already knew that. It is frustrating that the 2009 Derby was not an epic encounter between Sea The Stars and Fame And Glory because it simply was not a stern test of stamina.
In the estimation of the master trainer Oxx, Sea The Stars and Sinndar may be horses of quite polar athletic attributes, but both encountered the type of Derby that suited them. Right now, it seems that Sea The Stars could beat any horse in any circumstances, but those horses who are actually at this elevated level are much rarer than those who are simply perceived to be.
Watching the superb Sea The Stars in his pomp was a terrific sight, but we did not see him tested by having to run past Fame And Glory in a rare Derby when being further forward was an advantage.
Hopefully, that scenario may well be to come.
And now his views on the Irish Derby:
By James Willoughby 29 JUNE 2009
IT WAS perfect because it was just so simple. It was a moment of complete triumph for Aidan O'Brien and for Ballydoyle. And it showed.
The Dubai Duty Free Irish
Derby was a great celebration of the horse - before, during and after. There were great scenes when Fame And Glory paraded in front of the stands in triumph, Johnny Murtagh punching the air.
All it took was a proper gallop. There was no contortion of Fame And Glory'sathletic ability because the imposter Rip Van Winkle did not have to be catered for this time.
Instead, they let the true champion do his thing - with the stable jockey where he should have been at Epsom. As expected, Fame And Glory andMurtagh absolutely crushed them..
What a shame Sea The Stars was not around. He might have sprinted past Golden Sword at Epsom with more ease than Fame And Glory did here, but that was after a joke pace by Derby standards.
All the plaudits that went to Sea The Stars last time were deserved. His fleet of foot, the imperious way he comports himself, his utter superiority on the day.
But this time you had to give it to Fame And Glory. His brand of dominance is not of such high mettle, not of the finer kind, but honest, brutal, straightforward, unwavering.
He is everything we thought he was: a top-class staying machine who can survive any fractions, a relentless converter of every cell of energy into sustained pace to fire his slow-twitch muscles that will just fire all day. IT IS so sad that there is an obsession with speed in the thoroughbred.
Fame And Glory has plenty of it, just like Yeats, but their ability to pound out 12-second furlongs is gilded by precious stamina.
And that is fantastic to see in the four-time Gold Cup winner and the Irish Derby hero alike.
The real point about stamina is rarely made. It is not just about producing loveable old stayers who recall the old days; it is not just about preserving tradition and showing resolution against flimsy modernity, nor is it bowing to cheap, commercial trends..
There is no such physiological quantity as stamina. It is not transmitted as a gene, nor does it exist in the blood.
It is a collection of physical and mental attributes in the thoroughbred that enable it to carry its speed.
But this capacity is often closely related to the expression of what we perceive as courage and generosity: the ability to withstand pressure, to go through the pain barrier, to be resolute against the physical forces opposing forward motion.
Fame And Glory is the poster boy for this elite. Now, any horse who runs against him knows what they are going to get. If he meets Sea The Stars again, the champion won't get by on class for a second time.
"It was a very easy win," said Murtagh. "I knew from the way he had worked during the week that he was going to do something like this." Then, smiling at the perfect question from Gary O'Brien on At The Races, he added: "Sea The Stars is one-nil up, but it is a long year and I'm sure we'll meet again." From this, one senses Fame And Glory is a monster just waking up from youthful slumbers. That he has done a lot so far on natural talent, without his mind being sharpened in combat as much as it should.
And that is where his trainer excels. And where he will take over.
This was a great day for Irish racing. But there will be a better one when Fame And Glory gets another crack at Sea The Stars.
Make it a mile and a half, make it a mile and a quarter. It does not matter. Just make it a strong gallop.
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This is all a nonsense and hypothetical now as I doubt very much these two horses will meet again. I suspect imo that STS would beat fame and glory over 1m 4 if the ground is good or better even if the race was run at the same pace as the irish derby as he travels so easily in his races and has that turn of foot that allows him to accelerate away from other horses. If the ground was to come up softer than good then this gives FAG a chance to overturn due to the unlimited stamina he seems to possess. However this is unlikely to happen as Oxx has stated he wont run on anything worse than good.
Overall I don't think here can be any doubt Sea the Stars is the better animal he has now won Group 1's over a mile, 1m2f and 1m 4f what more can he do. People should enjoy him whilst he is racing cos he is a one in a million kind of horse.
Overall I don't think here can be any doubt Sea the Stars is the better animal he has now won Group 1's over a mile, 1m2f and 1m 4f what more can he do. People should enjoy him whilst he is racing cos he is a one in a million kind of horse.
EC1
On a break
we know that F&G ran in a strongly run race in Ireland..his speed figure in that race was 122
STS at Sandown - 130
which horse is better if we are talking about purely speed figures?
the statement that F&G could win any race over any distance as long as it is strongly run..is nonsense really isn't it?..he is patently suited by 12f..
I am starting to smell jealousy in the air re STS ...the horse is exceptional..unfortunately for a few on the board and in the media he appears to be in the wrong stable.
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
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- Aug 2, 2005
- Messages
- 24,206
EC1
On a break
does anyone think F&G could win a 7f race if it was strongly run..or a mile race?..I'll stretch that to 10f as well..unless he were in a poor field of course
he didn't really get going too quickly in the Irish Derby when tired horses were coming back to him..he didn't show speed there..he is stamina not speed..but because the word stamina suggests plodder no one wants it used any more
he didn't really get going too quickly in the Irish Derby when tired horses were coming back to him..he didn't show speed there..he is stamina not speed..but because the word stamina suggests plodder no one wants it used any more
He is certainly a more versatile horse than Fame And Glory (in terms of trip - seemingly not the ground). Like I said (time and time again) I would not fancy F&G to beat Sea The Stars over ten furlongs (unless it became soft) but I would give him a fighting chance to do it over 12 furlongs in a strongly run event....I do not think what I am saying is that controversial particularly when I am happy to give Sea The Stars the plaudids of a 130 plus performance on Saturday.
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Isnt there an old saying that "you never back against a champion". Maybe not...
But STS is undoubtably a champion. A rare horse. I simply do not blieve that we have seen the best of him yet. Hes actually mucked about a bit in races thus far and the conclusion from yesterday was maybe 10f isnt his best distance.... I think its well worth listening to Oxx and kinane (at any time) because they simply do not get carried away and tell it as it is (rather than as the PR agency would instruct them to..). They are convinced that he will improve. I sense that they are a little awestruck by what they have in their (extremely capable) hands
Like EC1. Im a bit tired of the F&G at 10f waffle. Its obvious why we are hearing it (willoughby is a bit of a coolmore groupie these days isnt he?) and yet nothing in his running suggests that would be the way to go. Hes a lovely horse and they will get the best out of him im sure, but he needs every bloody inch...
But STS is undoubtably a champion. A rare horse. I simply do not blieve that we have seen the best of him yet. Hes actually mucked about a bit in races thus far and the conclusion from yesterday was maybe 10f isnt his best distance.... I think its well worth listening to Oxx and kinane (at any time) because they simply do not get carried away and tell it as it is (rather than as the PR agency would instruct them to..). They are convinced that he will improve. I sense that they are a little awestruck by what they have in their (extremely capable) hands
Like EC1. Im a bit tired of the F&G at 10f waffle. Its obvious why we are hearing it (willoughby is a bit of a coolmore groupie these days isnt he?) and yet nothing in his running suggests that would be the way to go. Hes a lovely horse and they will get the best out of him im sure, but he needs every bloody inch...
EC1
On a break
no one is running down F&G you know Galileo..he's a bloody good animal..I think time will tell that RVW and Masterofthehorse are every bit as good though..on their day..imo..its a cracking year basically
It's not controversial, and you are entitled to your own opinion, but if Fame and Glory had his fast pace last week and can only run to 126 (he didn't seem to keep anything to himself so hard to see much improvement) how do you think it's possible he can beat Sea the Stars (131 - I'd go higher myself) who looks like there is much more to come.
Would you have thought Rip Van Winkle was a near 130 horse before the weekend? I think not.
I think Fame And Glory is capable of a 130 plus performance over 12 furlongs. He was not struck with the whip even once at The Curragh and was just ridden hands and heels the whole way. If we are lead to believe Sea The Stars had plenty left in the tank after strong driving and frequent use of the whip in the last furlong on Saturday then I think its fair to say F&G was at the very least as equally a comfortable winner at The Curragh relative to STS.
Fame And Glory is by Montjeu out of a Shirley Heights mare so is bred to improve with time (as his physical make up confirms) and was out late last year so there is every reason to expect plenty of improvement particularly with the benefit of a summers break. The Arc is his race all being well.