The Domination of Mullins & Co

Untalented trainers can be lucky and indulged by owners who dont know better. But I wonder what wylie thought when tidal bay was trained by a master rather than s muppet.

And owners will twig eventually. Traipsing around seven barrows muttering wheres my fcking horse is not ideal ownership is it
 
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Irish Stamp said:
Arguably it's because they aren't overly good at the accounting side of the business if they have the talent but can't make it pay.
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Maybe, Martin, but a trainer's job is more than 'three times up the gallop', and the Admin side needs just as much managing (possibly more so) as the rest of it.
 
To me there is no disputing there are many trainers out there as good if noy better than the man at the top Mr. PN. who is excellent btw and a brilliant bullshitter and business man. Martin Pipe before him saw an opportunty tp exploit and grabbed it with both hands. A bookmaker in the family was a great help and when they pulled off a touch or 2 they made sure everyone in racing knew about it and the gambling owners came flooding in. He would run horses on concrete if he had too. What the hell if the horsr broke down he had a list the length of his arm with mad punters wanting to put a horse with him. Perhaps not the most polular trainer in racing circles but a great business head on him. Then you look at someone like Richard Guest buying horses for tea money and winning races with them..older members remember Ken Hogg...I got rat arsed drunk with him years ago. He was a sheep farmer and a good friend of Ron Barry's and drinking buddy..Ken trained a horsr called Forest King and won just about every race going against top hirses from the likes of Gordon Richards yard. Old Norman Dalgetty ran a hotel near jeburgh and with the help of Donal Nolan pulled off massive touches with Braw lad and another couplr of horses who's names escape me. Ronnie(foster) Postlethwaite had 4 boxes at the back of his house in Norton round the corner from Pat Rohan..
where to start wiyh the strokes he pulled off with the aid of Tony Charlton..Abandon Warrior was only one of several and Tariq I think it was called pulled of a gamble at Sedgefield that JP himself would have been proud of. There are loads of very talented trainers out there most of whom have some other talented person to bounce off of. They may not have the desires of PN or his business acumen but as far as basic traing goes they are every bit as good
 
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Nicholls is the best trainer of chasers in the UK and Ireland. Without any doubt in my opinion.
 
He's not bad with his two milers either - Call Equiname, Azertyuiop, Master Minded all won the Champion Chase for him, he played a large part in the career of Flagship Uberalles too (won an Arkle for him), also Twist Magic won a couple of Tingle Creek's (Kauto Star too) and four renewals of the Maghull Novices at Aintree all over the minimum trip.

Martin
 
Aragorn said:
All of his chasers seem to last as well, something most other trainers seem to struggle with.
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Absolutely . He is quite a distance in front of other top trainers.No question. His handling of most of his chasers has been peerless . I also think that as much as anything sets apart a true gifted talent from the just ok. It's no coincidence that it has happened time and again with his very best whereas with some supposed genius trainers they simply disappear or fade away.
 
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Brilliant trainer but depends how you look at it when saying who is the best.

Nicky Henderson has the edge in my book but I wouldn't be willing to argue about it they are both excellent

If you are talking about price money that's one thing

If however you are talking about what's at their disposal thats another

And if you are talking about strike rates that's a different thing again

PN strike rate for hurdlers by the way is exactly the same for hurdlers than it is for chasers.

Scores on the doors over the last 5 seasons

NH FLat Henderson 30% Nichols 19%

Hurdles Henderson 25% Nichols 23%

Chasers Henderson 24% Nichols 23%

Prize money Henderson wins that too by a few thousand pounds

Nicky seems to be in front on every score:)
 
Prize money Henderson wins that too by a few thousand pounds
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Not sure where you get that from, Tanlic? For starters, if that was so, you would expect Henderson to have been champion trainer more often in the period. The actual prize money figures for the 5 years, according to the RP are:

Nicholls
[TABLE="class: grid right"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="class: first left"]NHF[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD]193[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]40[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]£88,897.39[/TD]
[TD]£144,985.52[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]-48.70[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: first left"]HURDLE[/TD]
[TD]282[/TD]
[TD]1238[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]212[/TD]
[TD]163[/TD]
[TD]124[/TD]
[TD]£3,361,900.00[/TD]
[TD]£4,902,199.25[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]-143.05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: first left"]CHASE[/TD]
[TD]274[/TD]
[TD]1187[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]199[/TD]
[TD]154[/TD]
[TD]104[/TD]
[TD]£4,846,509.24[/TD]
[TD]£7,081,867.91[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]-139.13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: first left"]
Henderson
[TABLE="class: grid right"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="class: first left"]NHF[/TD]
[TD]103[/TD]
[TD]348[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]58[/TD]
[TD]42[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD]£252,316.32[/TD]
[TD]£334,897.32[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]-44.96[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: first left"]HURDLE[/TD]
[TD]371[/TD]
[TD]1497[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]235[/TD]
[TD]158[/TD]
[TD]149[/TD]
[TD]£3,389,153.30[/TD]
[TD]£4,866,585.07[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]-46.96[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: first left"]CHASE[/TD]
[TD]166[/TD]
[TD]702[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]104[/TD]
[TD]70[/TD]
[TD]51[/TD]
[TD]£4,107,897.67[/TD]
[TD]£5,521,335.47[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]-93.86[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="class: last"][/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]
 
Henderson has arguably had the better ammunition over the past few years too. Nicholls is the better trainer in my eyes, especially with chasers.


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You're spot on Tiggers both trainers have some fantastically rich owners.

The fact only Michael Dickinson and Peter Easterby have managed to secure the title since the 70's is living proof being based down south is a huge advatage.

Gordon Richards, Penrith, was a brilliant hands on trainer and never did win the championship and there's been a few

It is very much down to hard cash available and if you buy enough well bred horses is only a matter of time before you end up with a top class horse who gives you a huge advatage.

If Red Rum for example had been with Gordon Richards he would have certainly won a Championship

David Elsworth was lucky enough to come across Desert Orchid and he did.

Best trainer is really a bit silly........One guy trains Kauto Star and wins a King George another get a rogue, a real pig of a thing and somehow manages to sweeten him up and win a seller.....who is the better trainer?
 
Henderson would never have won two King Georges with Silviniaco Conti. What's been most impressive about Nicholls in the past two years is that he's doing it with average horses in comparison to the Kauto/Denman/Master Minded era.
 
But the training of kauto star was impeccable and that season when he ran so many times was as memorable a campaign as we have seen. Smaller trainers have had talent and fcked up. We can think of a few can't we.

I still believe that denmans Hennessy win was possibly the most spine tingling training performance of my lifetime in either code but the resurrections of see more business and tidal bay were quite outstanding too.
 
Aragorn said:
Henderson would never have won two King Georges with Silviniaco Conti. What's been most impressive about Nicholls in the past two years is that he's doing it with average horses in comparison to the Kauto/Denman/Master Minded era.
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I believe that too. Probably wouldnt have run him but would we have expected the continued gradual improvement and attention to detail?
 
If NJH brings Sprinter back to win the QMCC that will be some training performance in my book but he needs more than that to be considered the equal of PFN IMO
 
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