The election 2015

Grasshopper said:
Arthur, Ideology is for students, wafflers and tall, thin, Eurocrats 😜. I deal in the day-to-day practicalities of existence.
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So you admit it, you're just a wrench monkey :)

If it was a good thing for property not to accrue in value, it surely would have happened by now.
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The market reflects the existing relationship between supply and demand; it is neither inherently good nor bad.

I don't believe a price cap would be either desirable or practical and I never once said I was. But on the other hand I don't think we should look at house prices going ever higher without considering the wider consequences. Housing is a primary need of all human beings and is not purely a commercial good, so we should be trying to ensure everyone has a secure roof over their head at an affordable price. Is the market providing that at present?

Beyond that, I generally don't have anything more to add to this discussion, other than to state that I'm naturally horrified to be on the same side of the debate as our hero from Richmond.....but in this single case, I believe he is correct (though an admittedly a horrible, rude, cu*nt whilst he goes about being right. 
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For God's sake don't flatter him, you know you won't get any thanks.
 
i wonder when Clive last actually thanked anyone Grey..i'd wager it would be when getting a 99 from the ice cream man back in the day.:)

lets hope it wasn't a 69:blink:
 
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Absolutely no chance ice. None at all. They have to win tory votes on tory seats. You realy think an ira supporting business hating drip has any chance of that?
 
clivex said:
Absolutely no chance ice. None at all. They have to win tory votes on tory seats. You realy think an ira supporting business hating drip has any chance of that?
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the IRA supporting stuff is wearing a bit thin Clive...lots of people eventually had to talk to the IRA..even though when Tony Benn tried to do that he was dismissed by people like you as sympathising..when in fact Tony always believed the only way to peace was through talking..thats not sympathising..its common sense

you have a myriad of stuff you can spew out to knock him..the IRA one just makes you look daft imo..

i love how you come across though as your typical right winger:)..fear and smear is the stock in trade

stop being a stereotype Clive..stop being a right wing forwarder of the same old same old...be individual just for a change eh
 
EC1 said:
if this goes his way something major will happen within the labour party. I would say that todays party are even more likely to split than when the gang of 4 p1ssed off.
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Social Democrat parties all across Europe are fracturing into left and right. It's the times. If it happens to Labour it might be a cleansing and the rebirth of a true Left. The current Blairite Nu-Labour is a corpse anyway, nothing more than Tory-lite.

Absolutely no chance ice. None at all.
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Just saying, the market doesn't seem to agree with your analysis, Clive.
Corbyn is Betfair third favourite behind Osborne and Boris Johnson to be the next PM after Cameron ( from a field of over fifty runners).
 
icebreaker said:
Social Democrat parties all across Europe are fracturing into left and right. It's the times. If it happens to Labour it might be a cleansing and the rebirth of a true Left. The current Blairite Nu-Labour is a corpse anyway, nothing more than Tory-lite.


( from a field of over fifty runners).
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centre ground will always look like Tory lite though.

what good is a re birth of true left?..most of them are fookin idiots..i've seen them at meetings in the 80's in Chesterfield when Tony Benn became our MP..they are like fleas who ride on the backs of such as Benn. I've personally no time for them..and up to 2000 i was a lifelong Labour man..arseholes most of them who would have us living a North Korean like existence given their heads.

it won't happen here..its had plenty of chance in the past..and people in the main..don't..and won't buy the reality of it
 
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icebreaker said:
Corbyn is Betfair third favourite behind Osborne and Boris Johnson to be the next PM after Cameron ( from a field of over fifty runners).
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fifty runners?..a bit like a seller with 3 decent hosses in..most of em might as well not even be there..its doesesn't build your argument that there about 40 odd no hopers in the running Ice. He's 3rd fav..and thats with 5 years until another election...when..he will be very lucky to be second depending on how big his party is. The problem he will have is that being 3rd or second is not worth much when the gulf between him and first is 10 times further than what Miliband faced....and look how close he got

it could happen..that even if he wins this one..he might not be leader by the next election
 
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Ice cant you read markets? Hes 10 /1 . In a near certain two runner race

I doubt whether any labour leader in memory has been more than half that price
 
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may as well be 500's..our cat gots more chance of pm job

this reminds of hearing young footie fans through the years thinking England can win a world cup..each time it came round i'd hear hopeful young fans saying..we've got a shout this time..and i'd say..no we haven't..,then after about 20/30 years..people eventually get the message..its sinks in..a situation isn't going to happen...i rarely hear any younger people now think england can win..its same with such as Corbyn and PM job..won't happen.

he'll probably get leader with all the ukip and tory folk voting for him in the joke of an election..but they hardly voting him for what he stands for..the fact they joining in should tell you Ice what chance labour have got with him as leader..all the oppo want him as leader..leave it with you
 
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Aside from clear clearly not being able to win tory voters how on earth is he going to keep the vast majority of labour voters who are pretty moderate?
 
Wrong ec totally wrong

those that "talked" to the ira didnt observe minute's silences for their members and didn't refuse point blank to condemn their bombing campaigns against British citizens
 
Warbler. How naive is the comment that if some businesses relocate others will take share of market?

You think that tata will expand jaguar under possible threat of diane flabbot running the business?And who wil replace jaguars disinvestment? Corbyns tractors?
 
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but he condemns all bombings Clive...he doesn't agree with violence at all....why should he particularly condemn the IRA ones when he has already condemned it as a whole

just because you and the media want him to pick and choose who is a "good" bomber and who is a "bad" bomber..you assume he sympathises. I don't read it that way..he's clearly a pacifist..i don't particularly agree with him..but he has the right to be what he wants. Just becasue you and the press want him to say what you want..and he doesn't..he's a sympathiser.

if we want to talk about killing innocent women and children..then if we want to pick and choose..we as a nation have plenty of blood on our hands don't we?...do we all have to condemn that..or we are automatically assumed sympathisers

violence is a bad thing generally..thats his view..whereas some people pick and choose when to have that belief..depending on which innocent women and kids are getting wiped out...who is the most honest?

Out of all the things to crticise him on..i'd say its the daftest given our record of murder as a country..and the hypocrisy involved when making these supposed neagtives against people who probably hold a view about killing people that isn't as slanted as is general in this country
 
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clivex said:
Warbler. How naive is the comment that if some businesses relocate others will take share of market?

You think that tata will expand jaguar under possible threat of diane flabbot running the business?And who wil replace jaguars disinvestment? Corbyns tractors?
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Depends on the nature of the industry, but I don't think the flight need be as serious as the scaremongering. I suspect we'll see something similar happen to that which we've seen in France (which means Chelsea will be stuffed for players)
 
I think it's also worth remembering that Cameron has got his referendum to get through and can potentially expect even more grief from his 50 or so UKIPers if they perceive that Labour aren't a threat.

I do wonder if he might be tempted to call an election after 2 or 3 years and win a three figure majority
 
clivex said:
those that "talked" to the ira didnt observe minute's silences for their members
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Or stand at a memorial in Dublin to those who've fallen in the cause of Irish nationalism, killed by troops fighting in her name.

Thin lines sometimes
 
Warbler said:
Capital will always go where they think they can make money Clive. I remember similar siren voices about Hong Kong falling under Chinese control and the British government making all sorts of contingency for the expected flood of investment back home that never happened. Similar thing happened (or didn't) in South Africa too. Most of them were rubbing their hands with glee instead. Cameron is leading trade missions to China every quarter at the moment, and they'll be dumping even more stuff now that they've devalued. Leftist government's are quite capable of making concessions and turning a blind eye when it suits them. If some people want to leave, then all they'll succeed in doing is allowing their competitors to take a bigger share of the market. The bigger trigger to any relocation is more likely to be tax, but just how much the senior decision makers pay at the moment would be a moot point anyway

I don't have a probelm with renationalising one of the energy companies with the view to running something more akin to a no frills provider, or Aldi for sake of another parallel. We've seen budget providers prosper in numerous industries but because energy runs as a cartel with a regulator that's been captured, it hasn't been extended into this no go zone. If they're as inefficient as you believe they will be, then clearly they'll be too expensive and no one will switch to them, so the existing competition has nothing to worry about, in fact they should welcome it as they'll be net beneficiaries (unless of course they aren't inefficient).

I wouldn't worry, the Tories would only reprivatise it so think of the windfall that would generate for the voters in give away shares. Actually, that's probably Corbyn's best chance.

Vote for Jezza, we'll nationalise everything. Then vote for Georgie and he'll privatise everything
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costed at between £120 and 180 billion to privatise the utilities. We will be paying alright

simoly believe that nationalised industries are inefficient because there is no competition (although water and arguably rail doesn't have xompettiin in fairness) and no pressure to manage costs. It's perfectly logical. I doubt such a mess would be made as in his favoured state Venezuela but anyone expecting signicantly lower prices can't read a p and l. These utilities margins are tight and knock the profit off and you would save what on a bill? 3% is it ? Not as much as you would probably lose by buying the bloody things through tax and borrowing. Also it would soon disappear because of the above

without quantifying it I think the business climate is the biggest disincentive. Especially for smaller businesses. With corporations decisions can be marginal and they will soon decide whether Amsterdam or London is best option if there is a hostile government in one or the other.

its doesn't matter because he has no chance of getting close by simply shoring up current voters on the left (trade unions and certain public sector ) and aliemating the rest. What the head in clouds far left never ever appreciate is that the vast majority of private sector workers buy into the success of their employers whether they like them or not. Private sector to the corbyns of this world is simply characterised as the mill owners the Rachman landlords with every employee exploited and dreaming of the opportunity to work I a nationalised salt mine or tractor factory
 
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You needn't have to nationalise all of them. Just nationalise one. The closest model would probably be the old TSB, and the run that as a lower cost 'no frills' provider. You could even buy up an independent and guarantee you'd have a million customers fairly quickly. I somehow suspect it would fall foul of the competition commission if they thought it would be subsidised (not that the existing private sector providers haven't received substantial state subsidies already). I wouldn't be shocked either to see business transfer their energy accounts to the state provider which could lead to Europe investigating it under their competition rules if its deemed to be a state subsidy (even if there are plenty of publicly owned state energy providers).

I think 3% is the retail margin Clive? You know full well that's a very misleading figure when the money is made on the wholesale side from a subsidary you own selling close to the retail rate

As you say though, there isn't a cat in hells chance that any of this will ever come to bear. I can only imagine pissed up Tory MP's sitting in Annies Bar before the election playing a game of paint the most incredulous scenario you can. With the possible exception of Dennis Skinner ....

I'm trying to imagine a possible circumstances that could lead to a total collapse in confidence in the body politik that would put Corbyn in. I can't. But who knows, it's a mad world. President Trump, Prime Minister Corbyn, President Cantona of France, suddenly Putin looks like a voice of reason. Rather than taunting Scots Clive you might be asking for Asylum in Dumfries yet
 
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Speaking of the Scots, how will it play up there if Labour moves to the left? Would they regain some of the support lost to the SNP?
 
Labours only minute hope of winning power in 2020 WAS/IS to do a deal with the SNP. If they could negotiate a deal whereby if in power the SNP wouldnt seek a referundum on independance then what is stopping them forming a coalition? I think the answer is the english votes for english laws piece of legislation. But whereabouts is Cameron in getting that through parliament at the moment?
 
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Grey said:
Speaking of the Scots, how will it play up there if Labour moves to the left? Would they regain some of the support lost to the SNP?
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Won't make any difference to the overall picture. You're basically looking at a 3 or 4 party alliance (call it a popular front). It might hinge to some extent on whether the liberals can take seast in the Midlands off the Tories, but they have very little base in the region

I wouldn't be shocked to see the Labour party break up into regional parties. There was some whispered discontent about the idea that Scotland (the region) stood to do well in the event of a Labour / SNP coalition, it's not a massive jump from there for the north of England to say the same
 
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