The King George
- Thread starter Bar the Bull
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BennyB
Senior Jockey
Kauto's consistency at the top level is another factor which makes him the superior racehorse. I'm not sure I buy the 'comfort zone' argument - I think an in-form Kauto could've handled Denman that day.
a 90% inform Kauto would handle Denman with ease. Seriously, when the hype is taken away and people look back on both their careers in 10 years time, they will wonder why people spoke of them together. Don't get me wrong, I like Denman, but when I hear of a comparison or Denman lauded as an all time great, I wonder have people watched racing the last few years. Yes, 2 great handicap performances, and admirably consistent in a Gold Cup, but this does not even come close to making a legend.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Not a chance. Denman was the superior animal at Cheltenham, the head to head doesn't lie. Kauto couldn't even win the worst renewal of the Queen Mother in a decade.
BennyB
Senior Jockey
I know jumping is the name of the game (and all that), but do you seriously believe Kauto would not have won that QMCC if he hadn't fallen? He would have hosed up.
If we're picking holes in Cheltenham records, Denman's defeat to Nicanor wasn't his finest hour, and although impressive in the Sun Alliance Chase, he didn't beat much did he?
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Kauto would have pissed that QM, but he fell, like he did in IC's Gold Cup.
Once again I'm not arguing overall merit here, Kauto was the better racehorse. But at Denman's best no horse could handle him at Cheltenham.
Once again I'm not arguing overall merit here, Kauto was the better racehorse. But at Denman's best no horse could handle him at Cheltenham.
Zenyatta
At the Start
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- Nov 4, 2011
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I have my feet very firmly in the Kauto Star camp on this matter and for that reason I accept that I may be blinkered to a certain extent.
To my eye it seemed blatantly obvious that Kauto Star was miles below form in 2008. He had an injury scare before the race and never jumped a fence (From RP Comments in running: "not fluent 7th, not fluent 11th, hit 13th, not fluent 17th and next, hit 4 out, mistake last). Kauto Star might have been prone to the odd catastrophic blunder in his youth but he was never a bad jumper. That day he was though and I think it remarkable how he was able to get so close. I said he was beaten early on the first circuit because he never found his rhythm. I cannot understand the "he was taken out of his comfort zone by Denman" argument. This is a horse who has won Grade 1s over 2m, he is perfectly capable of travelling at any pace that Denman has the ability to set. If Kauto Star had come there tanking down the hill and then folded back up it then I would readily accept that Denman beat him on merit by grinding it out. The fact that Kauto looked beaten from the very first fence seems to suggest to me that he was just a little below par.
I was with a Denman fan at the time and the very first thing I did after the race was bet that Kauto would reverse the form in 2009 (admittedly made easier by Denman's heart problem), and the second was to back him for 2009.
On that subject, If you want a performance that was unbeatable then look no further than Kauto Star in 2009. He would have left any staying chaser in his wake when he sprinted clear in 2009.
Denman is a great animal but, as others have suggested, for all his great and admirable qualities, he was limited. He had to go left handed, he had to have softish ground, he had to have a test of stamina and so on. He had nothing like the versatility of Kauto Star. The reason that Denman is so revered is not for his ability but for his character. He was tough as nails and gave everything he had. The fact that he was able to win 1 Gold Cup and finish 2nd in another 3 is evidence of this. He was tough and brave but in terms of ability was just short of the absolute top level inhabited by Kauto Star.
You only need look at their records; Kauto Star has won more Grade 1s than Denman has races over a far greater range of distances, conditions, right handed, left handed, quick ground, soft ground, and over a far greater time period.
Denman was a fantastic horse but I honestly believe that comparisons with Kauto Star are laughable. He was very good at what he did but not in the same league as Kauto Star. Then again not many are.
To my eye it seemed blatantly obvious that Kauto Star was miles below form in 2008. He had an injury scare before the race and never jumped a fence (From RP Comments in running: "not fluent 7th, not fluent 11th, hit 13th, not fluent 17th and next, hit 4 out, mistake last). Kauto Star might have been prone to the odd catastrophic blunder in his youth but he was never a bad jumper. That day he was though and I think it remarkable how he was able to get so close. I said he was beaten early on the first circuit because he never found his rhythm. I cannot understand the "he was taken out of his comfort zone by Denman" argument. This is a horse who has won Grade 1s over 2m, he is perfectly capable of travelling at any pace that Denman has the ability to set. If Kauto Star had come there tanking down the hill and then folded back up it then I would readily accept that Denman beat him on merit by grinding it out. The fact that Kauto looked beaten from the very first fence seems to suggest to me that he was just a little below par.
I was with a Denman fan at the time and the very first thing I did after the race was bet that Kauto would reverse the form in 2009 (admittedly made easier by Denman's heart problem), and the second was to back him for 2009.
On that subject, If you want a performance that was unbeatable then look no further than Kauto Star in 2009. He would have left any staying chaser in his wake when he sprinted clear in 2009.
Denman is a great animal but, as others have suggested, for all his great and admirable qualities, he was limited. He had to go left handed, he had to have softish ground, he had to have a test of stamina and so on. He had nothing like the versatility of Kauto Star. The reason that Denman is so revered is not for his ability but for his character. He was tough as nails and gave everything he had. The fact that he was able to win 1 Gold Cup and finish 2nd in another 3 is evidence of this. He was tough and brave but in terms of ability was just short of the absolute top level inhabited by Kauto Star.
You only need look at their records; Kauto Star has won more Grade 1s than Denman has races over a far greater range of distances, conditions, right handed, left handed, quick ground, soft ground, and over a far greater time period.
Denman was a fantastic horse but I honestly believe that comparisons with Kauto Star are laughable. He was very good at what he did but not in the same league as Kauto Star. Then again not many are.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
NC was a lot closer to Denman than Kauto was when the screw was turned so his jockey wouldn't have felt the need to push as much as Ruby did.
It's Kauto Star's Gold Cup wins in 2007 and 2009 in renewals that were run at relatively moderate gallops as well as his falls in a QM and in the 2010 GC, a briskly run one, that point to it being Denman that was responsible for his failure in 2008.
As great a horse as he has been Kauto has failed on three occasions when asked to race at Cheltenham at a brisk pace. And that's letting him off 2011's third place because he wasn't himself that season.
It's Kauto Star's Gold Cup wins in 2007 and 2009 in renewals that were run at relatively moderate gallops as well as his falls in a QM and in the 2010 GC, a briskly run one, that point to it being Denman that was responsible for his failure in 2008.
As great a horse as he has been Kauto has failed on three occasions when asked to race at Cheltenham at a brisk pace. And that's letting him off 2011's third place because he wasn't himself that season.
Kauto more versatile,
on figures similar level, as a Gold Cup horse Denman better.
If force to choose to own one, I prefer the career of Kauto but not by far.
Kauto won Tingle Creeks and KGs but I dont think Kauto could have won the second Henessy Denman won.
they are the best chasers I have seen with Moscow Flyer and Azertyuiop
on figures similar level, as a Gold Cup horse Denman better.
If force to choose to own one, I prefer the career of Kauto but not by far.
Kauto won Tingle Creeks and KGs but I dont think Kauto could have won the second Henessy Denman won.
they are the best chasers I have seen with Moscow Flyer and Azertyuiop
EC1
On a break
KS and DO are the best chasers since Arkle..Denman isn't in their league imo
as stated above..he was very condition needy as well
as stated above..he was very condition needy as well
B
Bruce_Savage
Guest
Lets be honest here, Kauto Star had too much ability to be running in a Henessey.
That race is a glorified Northumberland Plate with horses going nowhere in their careers, it's full of plot jobs and the weight Deman carried you'd of expected him to win against that opposition. When you have horses like Kauto Star, you keep them out of races like that!
Lets be honest here, Deman wasn't fit to lace Kauto's boots, he built his reputation on stealing races from the front and to be quite frank his jumping wasn't up to much either but that added to the excitment. In 10, 20 years time the day trippers and general public will remember Kauto Star, he's great, when a horse gets to that level they make a connection with the public as they never let them down in monetry terms unlike Denman who you'd have lost a fortune backing.
Kauto should never be compared to Deman, it's unfair on the Star.
That race is a glorified Northumberland Plate with horses going nowhere in their careers, it's full of plot jobs and the weight Deman carried you'd of expected him to win against that opposition. When you have horses like Kauto Star, you keep them out of races like that!
Lets be honest here, Deman wasn't fit to lace Kauto's boots, he built his reputation on stealing races from the front and to be quite frank his jumping wasn't up to much either but that added to the excitment. In 10, 20 years time the day trippers and general public will remember Kauto Star, he's great, when a horse gets to that level they make a connection with the public as they never let them down in monetry terms unlike Denman who you'd have lost a fortune backing.
Kauto should never be compared to Deman, it's unfair on the Star.
That is simply an unsustainable argument . In 2008 he was simply never going - the idea that Denman got him out of his comfort zone I could believe if Kauto had travelled easily and then struggled - in fact he was never going at all ! The 2009 renewal was run at a good even pace . In 2010 Kauto's problem was that they were not going fast enough and out of his rhythm he made a terrible mistake that completely knocked the stuffing out of him and led to his horrible fall.
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Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Despite Finlay's distasteful post-race comments it appears the only horse that that race had any lasting effect on was Denman himself. Denman won one of his ten subsequent starts (the Hennessy off 12 stone, a cracking performance it has to be said but one that was done in a handicap) whilst Kauto has won eight from fourteen (including no fewer than eight Grade 1's).
Bar the Bull
At the Start
Azertyuiop my arse.
Great race, great winner, and I guess I'm not off to Rio with my winnings on MM.
Great race, great winner, and I guess I'm not off to Rio with my winnings on MM.
Denman may have won a KG (but was never asked to), but I'd agree Kauto was superior in this respect. On the other hand Denman was an all-time great horse at Cheltenham, where he was superior to Kauto (in the first two in six consecutive Cheltenham Festivals) and Newbury. You might just as well say Kauto didn't win a Hennessy off 174.
The point is both are great at doing what they do. Only Arkle could do everything.
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BennyB
Senior Jockey
I would contend that Kauto can do everything. I think he would have won this year's Hennessy off his current mark. I also think he could win a Whitbread or whatever it's called this week...
People forget just what a freak Arkle was. We're talking about a horse they had to change the handicap scale to accommodate. A horse who never carried less than 12st in his last 19 races.
I'm a great fan of Kauto. He easily rates in the top handful of steeplechasers I've seen, but let's get it straight he was no Arkle. If you could take the best bits of all the other great chasers you might come up with something like it.
Zenyatta
At the Start
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2011
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- 587
I always think that this is ironic.
He said something along the lines of "Denman had broken Kauto Star's heart". In fact Denman had done the exact opposite and broken his own.
BennyB
Senior Jockey
We'll never really know the answer as it's almost impossible to make inter-generational comparisons. I know it's bordering on sacrilege to suggest Arkle was anything less than the second coming, but am I alone in thinking the rating given to Flyingbolt makes Arkle's a tad suspect?
EC1
On a break
not sure that argument weakens the very top horses though Clive..the top ten horses at that time would be very good animals..you would just generally get more poorer lower class animals.
to be so superior to a horse like Mill House alone is immense..basically if a match fit KS beats a match fit Denman by 25 lengths..does it matter how good the rest of the generation are?..its an immense rating
BennyB
Senior Jockey
What about the difference made by modern training methods, nutrition etc.? Significant impact or not?
I'm still not convinced by Arkle's rating - I just find it hard to believe both he and his stablemate were so superior to any other horses in history...
I'm still not convinced by Arkle's rating - I just find it hard to believe both he and his stablemate were so superior to any other horses in history...
prince regent
Conditional
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- May 2, 2003
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- 588
i wouldnt argue that they were superior maybe question by how much though