The King George

BennyB said:
What about the difference made by modern training methods, nutrition etc.? Significant impact or not?

I'm still not convinced by Arkle's rating - I just find it hard to believe both he and his stablemate were so superior to any other horses in history...
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the nutrition argument isn't relevant imo..taken to its extreme..in a 100 years a selling plater could beat a G1 horse with improvements in nutrition etc.

Why is it hard to believe the 2nd best horse came from the same stable?..hasn't Nicholls had the 3 highest rated horses over the last 20 years in his stable at the same time

Flyingbolt was also a bit of a freak..maybe they were giving out freak tablets in the yard;)

i've asked it before..no answer..if KS beat Denman 30 lengths with the rest strung out confirming Denman ran to form..what rating would you give KS???

it would be similar to Arkle's...he gave good horses proper hammerings..a bit like KS's best KG wins..but done nearly every race

thats not pulling KS down..he is the best chaser since Arkle...when we get another Arkle..then that one will be equal or better than Arkle..just forget Arkle..you won't see another one..and appreciate what we have got really is the answer..why pull horses down because its a long time ago and i want my generation horses to be better than other generations ones.?
 
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EC1 said:
Why is it hard to believe the 2nd best horse came from the same stable?..hasn't Nicholls had the 3 highest rated horses over the last 20 years in his stable at the same time
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It's not the fact they were stablemates I have a problem with, more the assertion both were 20lbs superior to any horse we've ever seen.

Re the Nicholls trio I do think Denman and MM have been overrated. Voy Por Ustedes was given a high rating for being the best of a weak bunch, and then when MM beat him 19l the handicapper had little choice. Denman is overrated for me because KS was below his best in the GC. Only my opinion though - I'm pretty sure the handicapper knows more about racing than me.

To answer your question, if KS beat Denman 30l you would have to rate them accordingly, though the margin would make it likely the latter had run below his best.
 
BennyB said:
Denman is overrated for me because KS was below his best in the GC. Only my opinion though - I'm pretty sure the handicapper knows more about racing than me.
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Denman's best run from a ratings point of view was his second Hennessy and to be honest it's amazing to me that anyone could describe him as overrated when Imperial Commander, Best Mate and Long Run all have higher overall marks.
 
BennyB said:
It's not the fact they were stablemates I have a problem with, more the assertion both were 20lbs superior to any horse we've ever seen.

Re the Nicholls trio I do think Denman and MM have been overrated. Voy Por Ustedes was given a high rating for being the best of a weak bunch, and then when MM beat him 19l the handicapper had little choice. Denman is overrated for me because KS was below his best in the GC. Only my opinion though - I'm pretty sure the handicapper knows more about racing than me.

To answer your question, if KS beat Denman 30l you would have to rate them accordingly, though the margin would make it likely the latter had run below his best.
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thats why i said the others confirm Denman ran to his best Benny..it would be 210 ish i would think

Arkle did get high ratings in handicaps..which is always questioned on here..even though Denman's handicap wins are usually drooled over..but its also overlooked the other performances when he beat very good horses at level weights

consistently beating MH further each time they met was unbelieveable at the time..MH was considered the best horse for many years on this side of the water..a comparison between MH and Denman is valid..similar style of running..and probably similar in ability..but eventually a country mile behind Arkle..at levels..and being given weight to

As Steve says..they changed the handicap system..for one horse in the history of racing..i wonder why
 
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Euronymous said:
Denman's best run from a ratings point of view was his second Hennessy and to be honest it's amazing to me that anyone could describe him as overrated when Imperial Commander, Best Mate and Long Run all have higher overall marks.
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he was built to carry weight..what is his rating ignoring weight in those henesseys?
 
Euronymous said:
Denman's best run from a ratings point of view was his second Hennessy and to be honest it's amazing to me that anyone could describe him as overrated when Imperial Commander, Best Mate and Long Run all have higher overall marks.
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Best Mate was never rated higher than 175. Some will shoot me down but I do just think he dominated in a very weak era. Looking at his King George win is painful viewing. How anybody can suggest that he is on a par with horses like Kauto Star and even Denman is beyond me.

Also agree that Imperial Commander is overrated. Are these the form figures of a 185 rated horse?

1/146173/114/161/P251U/1P-

I think not.
 
Zenyatta said:
Best Mate was never rated higher than 175. Some will shoot me down but I do just think he dominated in a very weak era. Looking at his King George win is painful viewing. How anybody can suggest that he is on a par with horses like Kauto Star and even Denman is beyond me.

Also agree that Imperial Commander is overrated. Are these the form figures of a 185 rated horse?

1/146173/114/161/P251U/1P-

I think not.
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the rating doesn't reflect consistency though does it?...it reflects best run..hence Best Mate can win 3 GC's but not rate higher than say a horse who wins one big chase and gets a rating of 180

the Hawk Wing factor
 
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Zenyatta said:
Best Mate was never rated higher than 175. Some will shoot me down but I do just think he dominated in a very weak era. Looking at his King George win is painful viewing. How anybody can suggest that he is on a par with horses like Kauto Star and even Denman is beyond me.

Also agree that Imperial Commander is overrated. Are these the form figures of a 185 rated horse?

1/146173/114/161/P251U/1P-

I think not.
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It was painful viewing because the ground was like glue that day ! Ratings are a bore and as Ruby said no more than one person's opinion.

Best Mate is in my opinion , very underrated . He won 3 Gold Cups for crying out loud and with it now appears a dodgy constitution . At Cheltenham on good ground he was superb . His 2003 victory was poetry in motion and he was a superb jumper of a fence.

I am sure he would have had Long Run for breakfast !
 
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on what do you base
I am sure he would have had Long Run for breakfast
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was it his defeat of the mighty commanche court or the awesome truckers tavern that leads you up this path

denman kato star and long run would have murdered him and any of the opposition he faced in either the gold cup or the kg

he as zenyatta says just dominated in a weak era and he had the fortune to have his good ground for cheltenham
 
Every year a thread has to be ruined by a pointless and futile argument by comparing the winner to Arkle. Well done folks.
 
davidjohnson said:
Every year a thread has to be ruined by a pointless and futile argument by comparing the winner to Arkle. Well done folks.
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the argument is a just a generation unacceptence thing imo...we compare horses with other horses every day of the week..its a racing forum..what do you expect?

can't see how it ruins anything mesen
 
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prince regent said:
on what do you base


was it his defeat of the mighty commanche court or the awesome truckers tavern that leads you up this path

denman kato star and long run would have murdered him and any of the opposition he faced in either the gold cup or the kg

he as zenyatta says just dominated in a weak era and he had the fortune to have his good ground for cheltenham
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A glib response. The point was that Best Mate destroyed his rivals so that others often ran on from the rear past the exhausted horses that had taken him on . He was a brilliant jumper one thing that Long Run is not .

Long Run's exalted ratings come from that now obviously dodgy KG form and beating a Denman evidently on the decline and an obviously not at anywhere near his best Kauto . Around Cheltenham I believe Best Mate would have beaten LR comfortably.
 
ardross

quite simply best mate won because he was superior to a weak division a good jumper yes and one that relished good ground and cheltenham but he beat nothing.

the only thing i can agree with you on is that long run badly needs to improve his jumping he never looks like falling but he never looks like a natural jumper either.

the form denman and kato star showed in last years gold cup was good enough to dispose of horses at the level of commanche court,truckers tavern (and the level of most of the horse bm faced) as they showed time and time again and there is nothing to suggest that if in place of long run was best mate he would have been able to prevent another victory for denmen

quite plainly denman kato star and long run are very much on a different level to best mate as admirable as he was
 
I wonder where Truckers Tavern would have come in some later editions of the Gold Cup.

Actually he'd have probably run in the handicap on the Tuesday.
 
Ardross said:
I am sure he [Best Mate] would have had Long Run for breakfast !
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Best Mate was very consistent but I see him as no better than the equivalent of Long Run and would expect Long Run to progress further yet.

Best Mate was a very good horse at Cheltenham but I would put him a fair bit behind Kauto Star and Denman, at Best Mate's best he wouldn't have beaten either in their respective Gold Cup wins.
 
I was only thinking last week at Cheltenham,that the Best Mate enclosure will be renamed surely in the next ten years,with better chasers coming along.
 
SteveM said:
would expect Long Run to progress further yet.
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On another forum that I post on I suggested that Long Run had reached his peak before the King George. He, like Master Minded, has been very precocious indeed, showing fantastic form at 5 and 6.

Kauto Star is the glaring exception to the rule that French breds peak early and then regress. However, that does not necessarily disprove the rule.

I remember both Henderson and Robert Waley-Cohen remarking on how much he had grown over the summer. It might just be that him growing has made him slower/less nimbler/etc. It doesn't mean that he has to have improved.

I am not saying he can't, but I do think it is dangerous to assume that he will automatically improve because of his age. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we had already seen the best of him.
 
Zenyatta said:
On another forum that I post on I suggested that Long Run had reached his peak before the King George. He, like Master Minded, has been very precocious indeed, showing fantastic form at 5 and 6.

Kauto Star is the glaring exception to the rule that French breds peak early and then regress. However, that does not necessarily disprove the rule.

I remember both Henderson and Robert Waley-Cohen remarking on how much he had grown over the summer. It might just be that him growing has made him slower/less nimbler/etc. It doesn't mean that he has to have improved.

I am not saying he can't, but I do think it is dangerous to assume that he will automatically improve because of his age. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we had already seen the best of him.
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It would surprise me. I've not seen any significant falling off of form in his last two races (apart from the actual result he has run pretty much as expected and been beaten by one of the best steeplechasers in NH history). Indeed he's probably improved on the start of last season. If Long Run improves at all on last year's Gold Cup performance Kauto would have to run to his best to win. I can't really see that happening.
 
Master Minded future in limbo

Owner Clive Smith believes a decision on whether Master Minded will race again may not be made for another year.

The dual Champion Chase winner severed a tendon when stepping up to three miles for the first time in the King George at Kempton on Boxing Day. He has undergone successful surgery, and remains in Newmarket convalescing, but Smith warns the chance of infection is now the main danger.

"I was down at the yard on Monday and Dan Skelton gave me a good summary of the injury in detail, to which Paul Nicholls added some points," said Smith.

"Basically, he has had his open tendon sewn back together. It was not ruptured, just severely damaged. The big problem with injuries like this is if they get any muck in them but Master Minded's is clean at the moment.

"He remains in Newmarket and as much as possible is being done for him. He's in plaster and I think he will be for about a month. He will obviously have a very long rest but hopefully he will be walking on the roads by the end of the year with a possible return to training about 12 months away.

"The main thing is infection, although there is no sign of that at present. A similar case I remember is Azertyuiop, whom Paul trained. He came back in to full training but couldn't stand it after a year off.

"The answer is we just don't know if he will race again at this stage. But if he doesn't he's been a wonderful horse - if it wasn't for Kauto Star he would have been the horse of a lifetime."
 
Roddy Owen said:
I was only thinking last week at Cheltenham,that the Best Mate enclosure will be renamed surely in the next ten years,with better chasers coming along.
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When we see a four time GC winner no doubt we will .

The point that most horses beaten by Best Mate were never the same again seems to escape many on here - let alone that the horses that tried to take him on in his best wins faded away tamely and horses ran on from the rear past exhausted rivals .

As for beating nothing let me see - Florida Pearl , Looks like Trouble, See More Business, Cyfor Malta, What's Up Boys , First Gold, Beef or Salmon .....

It seems that unless there is a Kauto or Denman in the field a horse has beaten nothing . Look at the proximity of Calgary Bay in IC's Gold Cup - he is rated stones below Best Mate at Wantage I am sure . There are a considerable number of overrated horses out there rated highly for getting close to Kauto or Denman one day - or even beating them like Snoopy Loopy !
 
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