The King George

[Steve T]

There will be enough hunter chase dates for him to have served his suspension by the end of February.

That's a shame, I'd really like to see one of the top jockeys ride Long Run to see the difference. There's always the threat of 2 weeks worth of extreme weather abandonments to hope for! He probably wouldn't want any further bans either or that would push him close.

 

[prince regent]

think the swc bashing unfair the fact of the matter is KS is a better and more natural jumper than Long run is

if LR loses 1/4 of a lenght at the last 4 fences due to his jumping not being as slick as katos itsd not a bad effort to go down by the distance he did

so i dont think SWC does that badly on the horse

 

[SteveM]

Fantastic to see Kauto land his fifth KG, even though I lost heavily on Long Run (win) and Master Minded (place). Ruby gave him a beautiful ride. I thought Long Run was very good too, a little ragged under pressure, but very good. I'd still tend to favour him for the Gold Cup.

 

[Zenyatta]

Delighted for the horse and all connections. He is something else.

Nothing much can be added to the debate about the King George. It panned out pretty much exactly as I expected. Long Run got outpaced and was staying on but all too late.

I suppose inevitably the next question is can Kauto win the Gold Cup. In my opinion he absolutely can but the tactics will need to be altered slightly for him to pull it off. You know that Long Run will be staying on up the hill so all Ruby has to do is make sure that he saves enough to put distance between himself and Long Run from the home turn. He did it in 2007, he did it in 2009, he can do it in 2012.

He can't afford to be as positive on him because I think, like many, Long Run would outstay him up the hill. The ride will need to be absolutely spot on but if ever there was a man for the job its Ruby Walsh. He needs to put enough pressure on Long Run's jumping and save enough to kick clear from the bend both at the same time. He'll need to strike a delicate balance but Kauto can definitely win if Ruby can pull it off.

The only department in which Long Run is superior is stamina so as long as it is not a real slog I fancy Kauto to at least have a good chance of making it 3 in March.

I'm not sure how Ruby can best achieve the two mutually exclusive objectives; the faster he goes the more pressure he puts on Long Run's jumping but the less he saves for the hill. He has plenty of time to think about how to do it best. I have had a little think myself and perhaps the best policy would be to plonk Kauto upsides Long Run. We all saw that Kauto destroyed him when he came upsides so by putting Kauto upsides and letting him jump away he can put pressure on Long Run without burning up too much fuel.

So the answer to can Kauto win the Gold Cup is yes, but things will need to fall in to place. He's the best horse in the race so provided stamina isn't the primary attribute required I think he can do it. He is easily capable of putting 5+ lengths between himself and Long Run from the bend to the 2nd last and if he comes up the hill OK (and I see no reason this season why he shouldn't) then that might be enough to see him in front at the line.

Whatever happens it will be a cracking race.

 

[SteveM]

Like you say if they both run to their ability Ruby will have to judge it exactly (as he did in the KG), but with more emphasis on stamina in the Gold Cup I'd have to be with Long Run. Ruby proved me wrong in the KG, but Long Run's chance will be enhanced in the Gold Cup. Younger legs up the hill won it last time and I think will be the deciding factor again.

 

[doomster]

I apologise if it's already been mentioned but does no one actually think it's the perfect time to retire Kauto ?

I realise the temptation is always there to run and the owner has lost Master Minded, but I couldn't think of a better way to sign out.

He's obviously a strong contender for the GC and even a stone below his best may suffice, but after his record I'd much rather see him out to grass.

My view may be slightly biased in that I don't think he will win the Gold Cup, but I would always prefer a top class horse to finish at the top.

 

[SteveM]

The Gold Cup was always his target this season. They have to go for it now. Remember people were trying to pension him off last season and the one before. I'm glad they made their own decision about it.

 

[chroniclandlord]

Long Run is to run in the Aon at Newbury before Cheltenham.

 

[SteveM]

Long Run is to run in the Aon at Newbury before Cheltenham.

The Denman you mean. Makes sense for a horse with several similar attributes.

 

[Ardross]

Similar attributes to Denman ? Losing to Kauto the year after you beat him in the GC? Hope so ! I think Long Run has a way to go to match Denman yet.

 

[Hamm]

Denman was very good, but very limited. Only when the emphasis was on stamina was he in his element - the King George was a race never even considered for him, and his record at Aintree was very poor.

 

[Ardross]

Denman was very good, but very limited. Only when the emphasis was on stamina was he in his element - the King George was a race never even considered for him, and his record at Aintree was very poor.

I have always been firmly in the Kauto camp but I think that is harsh . Firstly, he was never considered for the KG as they knew he could not beat Kauto round Kempton and later in his career it became clear he was not much kop right handed (ok a limitation) and secondly, he was asked to run at Aintree after running his guts out at Cheltenham .

He did not outstay his rivals in Hennessys he outclassed them .

 

[harry]

Aintree form is always suspect

 

[Cruella]

I have always been firmly in the Kauto camp but I think that is harsh . Firstly, he was never considered for the KG as they knew he could not beat Kauto round Kempton and later in his career it became clear he was not much kop right handed (ok a limitation) and secondly, he was asked to run at Aintree after running his guts out at Cheltenham .

He did not outstay his rivals in Hennessys he outclassed them .

I don't think it's particularly harsh. He needed 3m+ on a left-handed track. When he got 3m+ on a L-H track he could be brilliant, as the Hennessy x 2 and 2008 GC showed, but it's fair to say that he had those limitations (not so good right-handed, not enough pure speed for anything sub-3m), which PFN recognised early on and chose his races accordingly. I'm sure if there had been any suggestion that he could have been competitive in the KG over a sharp right-handed 3m then he would have run, Kauto or no Kauto.

Similarly you could say that Kauto's physical limitations (lighter-framed, more angular) contributed to him never being asked to "do a Denman" and carry top-weight in a Hennessy/Whitbread or similar. There's nothing derogatory in either assertion.

 

[SteveM]

Similar attributes to Denman ? Losing to Kauto the year after you beat him in the GC? Hope so ! I think Long Run has a way to go to match Denman yet.

I'm not saying he is as good as Denman, but he does share some of the same attributes.

 

[Euronymous]

Denman was very good, but very limited. Only when the emphasis was on stamina was he in his element - the King George was a race never even considered for him, and his record at Aintree was very poor.

True, but Cheltenham is the holy grail and no horse in the history of the game could have handled the tank that day in 2008.

 

[SteveM]

Denman was very good, but very limited. Only when the emphasis was on stamina was he in his element - the King George was a race never even considered for him, and his record at Aintree was very poor.

All horses are limited, but Denman had defining qualities that marked him out not just from the herd but also from other great horses.

I saw Arkle win his third Gold Cup and in the intervening years I never imagined a horse would astonish me as much as him. Denman has defied logic and confounded the sceptics.

Never out of the first two at six consecutive Cheltenham Festivals, Denman destroyed his field by ten lengths in the 2007 RSA Chase, the same year as his stablemate Kauto Star won his first Gold Cup. When he beat Kauto Star in the 2008 Gold Cup he had won 14 of his 15 starts (comprising nine chases, five hurdle races and one point-to-point). His only defeat thus far had been when runner-up in the 2006 RSA Novices’ Hurdle. His unbroken sequence of chase victories also included his first Hennessy Gold Cup in 2007 off a mark of 161 and top weight.

Although he was to win just once more – despite the not inconsequential achievement of finishing runner-up in no fewer than three more Gold Cups – that one time more is perhaps what typified his qualities the most and defined him for what he was.
After overcoming a heart condition in his 2008-09 season, he returned to Newbury and the Hennessy Gold Cup in 2009, after missing the same race in 2008.

That day he did the impossible. He won this most exacting and competitive of handicaps off a mark of 174, putting his opponents to the sword in a brutal display of power and resilience.

It’s true Denman never won a Champion Hurdle or a Champion Chase, or indeed a KG, or was asked to try, but when you are as good at doing what you do, why would you?

 

[Hamm]

True, but Cheltenham is the holy grail and no horse in the history of the game could have handled the tank that day in 2008.

The mighty Imperial Commander thrashed him, and Long Run, who Kauto is better than, beat him comfortably enough. Denman was very consistent, but is a level below Kauto. One performance where he got his better doesn't elevate him anywhere near Kauto, and his form as a whole, his awful win ratio in open chases and his limited range of races he could excel in mean this can't be argued.

 

[SteveM]

Denman was a better Gold Cup winner than Kauto. At their respective best he was a better horse at Cheltenham (never out of the first two at six consecutive Cheltenham Festivals). While Kauto is clearly better at Kempton. McCoy has said Denman is the best steeplechaser he has seen in the past 20 years.

 

[Euronymous]

Denman wasn't the same horse after the 2008 GC. Sure he was close, but that sort of heart condition had to have affected his overall ability such a lung buster that he was.

On overall form and ratings Kauto is his superior, I'm not arguing that point. But at his best no horse would have been capable of achieving their best form because of the way he trampled them into the ground.

 

[Hamm]

Let's not forget that awesome performance had another all time great, Neptune Collonges, only 7 lengths away. Seriously lads, that supposed peak came when Kauto ran way below his best.

Denman was good at Cheltenham, but not great. He had no excuses against Imperial Commander and Long Run save for the face he wasn't up to it. I'm not denying he was a good horse, but he is most certainly far away from the likes of Kauto. Good in a handicap as he was built to carry weight, and lucky enough to profit from Kauto running a stinker in 2008.

 

[EC1]

Denman was a better Gold Cup winner than Kauto. At their respective best he was a better horse at Cheltenham (never out of the first two at five consecutive Cheltenham Festivals). While Kauto is clearly better at Kempton. McCoy has said Denman is the best steeplechaser he has seen in the past 20 years.

the difference is though that Kauto still won at Cheltenham whilst Denman would never have won a KG..KS a better horse by some way imo

 

[Muttley]

McCoy has said Denman is the best steeplechaser he has seen in the past 20 years.

It would seem that AP has comprehensively changed his mind ..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ho...-fifth-King-George-VI-victory-at-Kempton.html

 

[BennyB]

Let's not forget that awesome performance had another all time great, Neptune Collonges, only 7 lengths away. Seriously lads, that supposed peak came when Kauto ran way below his best.

Denman was good at Cheltenham, but not great. He had no excuses against Imperial Commander and Long Run save for the face he wasn't up to it. I'm not denying he was a good horse, but he is most certainly far away from the likes of Kauto. Good in a handicap as he was built to carry weight, and lucky enough to profit from Kauto running a stinker in 2008.

Entirely agree. Kauto was nowhere near his best in Denman's GC. It's taking nothing away from Denman's reputation to say that Kauto is/was a far superior racehorse. Denman had one set of conditions where he absolutely excelled. Kauto has won Grade 1 races from 2 miles to an extended 3, right and left handed, and on almost any ground.

Denman is a legend, no doubt, but in terms of greatness he's not fit to oil Kauto's hooves.

 

[Euronymous]

Let's not forget that awesome performance had another all time great, Neptune Collonges, only 7 lengths away. Seriously lads, that supposed peak came when Kauto ran way below his best.

It doesn't matter how far NC was beaten. He'd toasted his rivals and in so doing tied up badly towards the end, he was out on his feet. Neptune Collonges only finishing 7L behind Denman in that Gold Cup is as much a reflection on their comparative abilities as Frankel only beating Native Khan by a similar margin in the 2000Guineas was on theirs.

Entirely agree. Kauto was nowhere near his best in Denman's GC.

Like Canford Cliffs wasn't at his best in this year's Sussex. There is a reason behind those two animals not performing on their respective days. It's called being taken out of their comfort zones.