The McManus Operation?

On The Bridle compared Gigginstown and felt they were more efficient.

Figures for the same season 2009/10:

Number of horses in training in Ireland 82

Runs 318

Wins 43

Placed 127

Total Prize Money £814,263

Not sure if they have horses in training in GB but they did have 14 horses that ran here.

They had:

Runs 23

Wins 6

Placed 7

Total Prize Money £128,699
 
They used to have horses with Brian Meehan on the flat but certainly nothing in training over here jumps wise.
 
Does McManus have any base in pointing at all? Pat Doyle trains a fair few horses for Gigginstown to win points before being moved on to one of the Gigginstown trainers (in much the same way Nicholls uses Barber and Liam Burke). Does anybody know if McManus has any sort of operation in that sphere?
 
Frank Berry appears to use the close-eyes-and-point method when picking horses, tracks. Does that count?
 
Thanks Colin - On your figures my guess was pretty accurate as many winners and more prize money from half the runners. Gigginstown just seem to have a better type of horse - obviously they buy and breed bad ones too - the just don't seem to run them or maybe persist with them.
 
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McManus tried to buy Brave Inca on a number of occasions. But one of his issues here is that he refuses to offer a price for the horse. He simply wants the trainer to commit that the owners are sellers. If they are, then he will offer. As a result, he does not acquire as many horses as he could e.g. if someone offered €400k for Raise THe Beat, would it be of interest to the syndicate(??) but if he asked if he was for sale the answer would be no and it goes no further.

The it comes down to buyers. Edde O'Leary and the Coolmore team (on the flat) are so far ahead of Frank Berry and Ferguson.

O'Leary has no interest in gambling. His strategy is simple. If they are not good enough, they are out. He is only interested in graded performers so he churns quite a few more. McManus is a gambler and would probably get more enjoyment from landing a gamble in a handicap with a grade 3 horse than actually winning the grade 3.

McManus' scattergun approach is similar to O'Leary's. however, McManus is all about loyalty so he has horses with trainers who may not be good enough becuase they rode plenty of winners for him or other personal reasons. O'Leary chooses his trainers based on ability and if you do not produce you are out. If you produce you get nicer horses.

There are other reasons why they are different but that's a start!!
 
Given the figures quoted re Mr McManus's outlay vs income, I must assume that his income from punting is highly successful! Good on him - he sounds like a very decent sort of person, with his heart, as well as his head, in the business. I like that he retires his horses, too, not just chucks them out to fare as best they can.
 
krizon said:
Given the figures quoted re Mr McManus's outlay vs income, I must assume that his income from punting is highly successful! Good on him - he sounds like a very decent sort of person, with his heart, as well as his head, in the business. I like that he retires his horses, too, not just chucks them out to fare as best they can.
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For most people with lots of money, it tends to be the thrill of pulling it off rather than the actual money. He would have got a great thrill out of the Barney Curley or Barney O'Hare three timers, even if he only won 100k. The reason Bill Gates continued for so long had very little to do with money and everything to do with power and ego. making income match outlay might not matter to JP but it does to O'Leary!!
 
He would have been described as a Corinthian a couple of centuries ago, a description which would appear to sum him up very well.
 
Cantoris, isn't that what perhaps far more of gambling is about than perhaps even gamblers know? Yourself versus X - name the enemy? Seeing if your strategies, wiles, knowledge, intuition and bravado overcome the opposition - in Mr McManus's case, the bookies and now exchanges (I assume he uses those, too). Outwitting and outflanking in the way military campaigns are led. You're your own general, your money is your troops - into battle you go against a worthy foe! Yes, there's got to be a drive to overpower the other one, whether it's Blue Square or Betdaq, and the win is not so much about adding large lumps to one's bank balance as about validating one's own judgment.

I think for many gamblers, in particular high-stakes rollers, this is the kick. Of course they may lose sometimes, but to them that's just a bit of expected collateral damage on the way to sending in their troops again, this time to overwhelm and take away the latest trophy.

I imagine it's fascinating to study the psyches of the world's top gamblers - which must include those "gambling" on launching new businesses or pushing new inventions as much as roulette players and spread bettors - I'm sure there are common factors, with the will to win being a manifestation of aggression, but not one that takes too many real lives.
 
McManus makes a lot of his money from his currency exchange based in Switzerland which basically involves him shifting money from currency to currency in the hope of seeing its value rise. Another chunk of his money comes from his investments which encompass anything from nursing homes, to pubs to leisure centres. He also has a big stake in Ladbrokes and is of course notorious for his investment in Man Utd.
 
Hasn't anyone written his biography? Where did it all start for him - what is his background? There's a bio on the late Robert Sangster, which I had years ago, and it's always interesting to find out the back story to strong characters in racing.

What looks certain is that all of the major players, from the Queen to the Aga, the sheikhs of various dominions, and the head-spinningly rich like the Wertheimers to the Stewarts, all have hefty supportive incomes from well outside the racing business!
 
He worked on building the house that he eventually ended up owning (which must be very satisfying), so he’s self-made. He takes enormous pleasure in his racing and gives the impression of being fairly relaxed about things.
 
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So, a bit like (Sir) Stan Clarke? He developed St Modwen (construction) on the back of taking on local council refurbishments cheaply, doing a good job, getting some more work, then building a few houses at his own risk - and away he went to a multi-million pound set-up, founding Northern Racing, and a knighthood for 'services to Staffordshire'. And while I don't believe the interest in betting was there, his interest in providing a clean, friendly 'customer experience' certainly was. He used to hunt round the courses' buildings to find an unnoticed spider web, or a corner not sufficiently brushed out, or debris on the carpets. Not good enough! His standards were very high - to the point he recalled his then Clerk of the Course at Brighton, Jeremy Martin (now at Salisbury) busy on a raceday at the 6f marker, to point out an insouciant dandelion sprouting in the parade ring.
 
JP has gone broke many times as a building contractor and as a bookie - he is hugely successful now but he has seen very hard days too!!
 
krizon said:
Cantoris, isn't that what perhaps far more of gambling is about than perhaps even gamblers know? Yourself versus X - name the enemy? Seeing if your strategies, wiles, knowledge, intuition and bravado overcome the opposition - in Mr McManus's case, the bookies and now exchanges (I assume he uses those, too). Outwitting and outflanking in the way military campaigns are led. You're your own general, your money is your troops - into battle you go against a worthy foe! Yes, there's got to be a drive to overpower the other one, whether it's Blue Square or Betdaq, and the win is not so much about adding large lumps to one's bank balance as about validating one's own judgment.

I think for many gamblers, in particular high-stakes rollers, this is the kick. Of course they may lose sometimes, but to them that's just a bit of expected collateral damage on the way to sending in their troops again, this time to overwhelm and take away the latest trophy.

I imagine it's fascinating to study the psyches of the world's top gamblers - which must include those "gambling" on launching new businesses or pushing new inventions as much as roulette players and spread bettors - I'm sure there are common factors, with the will to win being a manifestation of aggression, but not one that takes too many real lives.
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You've got it almost spot on as a trader Mcmanus will have a hugely competitive nature I haven't met a trader that isn't. His punting will be all about that him against whoever it isn't the money it's the victory. I would guess at some point as well he was a keen sportsman at a decent level.
 
On The Bridle said:
JP has gone broke many times as a building contractor and as a bookie - he is hugely successful now but he has seen very hard days too!!
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Most of our most successful entrepeneurs are failures in a previous life!! They become successes because the learn from their mistakes or apply the right idea to the right product (as opposed to the wrong product which failed before). Of course, then there are the lucky bastards that get it right first time!!
 
Simon said:
Another chunk of his money comes from his investments which encompass anything from nursing homes, to pubs to leisure centres.
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Should that not have read "another chunk of his money has been LOST on his investments......". Sandy Lane cost them a fortune. They paid a wicked amount for a property in Paris that will never make them a profit. They bought into Mitchells and something in the UK, a pub chain, whose debt was being restructured last year. The nursing home idea is with Denis Brosnan but they bought properties are the height of the boom so while the operating business might be making money, it is not making up for the property value loss.

Like every gambler, you hear about his wins, but rarely about his losses....and there have been many.
 
Cantoris said:
Like every gambler, you hear about his wins, but rarely about his losses....and there have been many.
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It's not about where you start though, it's where you finish. JP has moved a long way from his beginnings. If it's two steps forward and one back the two forward have been miles bigger.
 
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