EC1
On a break
Well I can't even see one of the horses, so I'm not surprised!
if that horse i won't mention again had run....he would be out of the picture to the left
The Road to the 2012 2000 Guineas
- Thread starter Bar the Bull
- Start date
if that horse i won't mention again had run....he would be out of the picture to the left
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Beauty Parlour would have won the Poulains just as comfortably.
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Bruce_Savage
Guest
Good post Euron.
From the RP
"A very messy race, impossible to rate positively given the bunch finish and pacemaker finishing second. Although the winning time was almost identical to that recorded by the fillies in the Pouliches, the leader went 0.45sec quicker for the first 600m, while the final 200m was covered in a time 0.34sec slower."
She would have won on that evidence by about 4+ lengths indicating an average bunch of colts we have this year but an excellent filly in Beauty Parlour.
Still at a loss to how CDV franked the 2000 Guineas form though.
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Bruce_Savage
Guest
Would like to mention do you think it would be worth supplementing Beauty Parlour for the Epsom Derby?
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I would love that almost as much as a Black Caviar/Frankel match up.
Wouldn't happen if you were paying to supplement. She'll go Diane; Vermeille and probably Arc from here on out if she stays healthy.
Zenyatta
At the Start
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In the 2000 Guineas Coup De Ville was beaten 3 3/4 lengths on the favoured far side. In the Poulains he was beaten 2 lengths (roughly). That leaves Camelot 1 3/4 lengths ahead, and he could be value for considerably more depending on what stance you take on the way the races unfolded.
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Bruce_Savage
Guest
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Bruce_Savage
Guest
You're willing to stand by the Poule D'Essai Des Poulains today as a solid bit of form? for me it's got dodgy written all over it and it's mind boggling how anyone could take the finishing distances as hard evidence.
Not quiet sure how long you've been in Horse Racing Zen despite your knowledge but races like those today are a freak occurance in Grade 1's and as a rough guess most journalists & professional form readers are likely to throw it out the window.
Could you imagine trying to price up that race next time out? I'm sure the bookmakers would go with Dabirism & Dragon Pulse as market leaders again despite the finishing positions.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
That looked yer typical Group 2 standard French Guineas though.
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Bruce_Savage
Guest
Lucayan the winner was a 1.25l second to Coupe De Theatre earlier this season who in turn was 6/6 behind Dragon Pulse & Dabrism beaten 10 lengths.
Veneto finished 2nd today who was previously a 5.25l 8th to French Fifteen and has beaten Coupe De Ville as a pacemaker by the best part of 2l despite the Hannon horse having first run at him.
Amaral through two year old form beat Pakal 1l who inturn finished 1.75l behind Tai Chi next time out before finishing a 1l second to French Fifteen in the Criterium International whilst Amaral was defeated by Tai Chi 3.75l and then subsequently beaten Pakal 9.25l on reappearance this year.
Gregorian was beaten 3l by Coupe De Ville in the Tatersalls Millions over 7f in receipt of 8lbs and has subsequently finished a strong 5th in todays event with CDV best part of a regressing length in 7th.
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Bruce_Savage
Guest
Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't Camelot supposed to be the new coming of an International Superstar? the journalists have said you could rate him a few lengths better than the rest of the field.
Quite clearly you have no understanding of the form book if you think CDV has franked a superstar's form.
Let me remind you about Sea The Stars and his Eclipse win - that's what you call Franking.
To be honest with you I've never seen a slow time at Group 1 level being franked strongly and until something manages to come out of the 2000 Guineas and win I'm sorry you've not franked anything apart from showing you have just about as much understanding of Horse Racing as Frank Gallagher.
See you in the jockey.
Zenyatta
At the Start
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So the running of Gregorian suggests that Coupe De Ville was below par today. Excellent. We can put Camelot a few further lengths clear.
As you can see, it is very easy to manipulate the results to suit whatever you want to see.
I might have misread, but could you explain how exactly Coupe De Ville got first run on the pacemaker?
As you can see, it is very easy to manipulate the results to suit whatever you want to see.
I might have misread, but could you explain how exactly Coupe De Ville got first run on the pacemaker?
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I don't think it matters how below standard his Guineas win was (if at all) as he is bred to be better over further. The best Derby winner in my experience was fourth in his Guineas and it was a muck renewal.
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Bruce_Savage
Guest
Coupe De Ville should have won The French 2000 Guineas today if he was 5.25l behind a monster called Camelot.
When you look at who won the race today then you'd be even more disappointed that he didn't win given his excellent performance behind Sir Monsterlot.
I've said my bit now goodnight.
When you look at who won the race today then you'd be even more disappointed that he didn't win given his excellent performance behind Sir Monsterlot.
I've said my bit now goodnight.
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Zenyatta
At the Start
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Bruce, you are completely missing the point. Camelot is not a potential superstar miler. He is a potential superstar middle distance horse. He has proven himself the best of his generation over 8f so far and is likely (not certain) to be considerably better over further. That is why he is exciting. What he has done is merely a signal to what he might be able to achieve in the future. I've already said that I don't think either Guineas form is that great but that doesn't detract from Camelot.
I don't get what the issue is.
I don't get what the issue is.
edgt
Senior Jockey
At the end of the day, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. The best guide to how good any unbeaten horse can only be decided upon when they are beaten. Then you can try to make sense of the form fully. I remember a Racing UK discussion trying to prove that Sea The Stars was not a proper 11/2 mile horse AFTER winning at Epsom. By the end of the season the discussion proved pointless even if it was entertaining at the time. That I suppose is the beauty of racing.
prince regent
Conditional
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- 588
has anyone noticed how AOB horses seem to improve markedly from their debut to their 2nd run Homecomning queen Furners cross Tower rock........
perhaps on derby day another one might follow this path
perhaps on derby day another one might follow this path
...we say the same every season don't we prince. He usually leaves a bit to work on.
I doubt very much that there is an issue as such. Bruce is (as our American cousins have it) "running interference". His objective is to divide for his own amusement.
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Bruce_Savage
Guest
You need to relax Steve, not quite sure who you think you are but you're no expert yourself.
Back to the drawing board kid and try spending your time winding someone else up.
Back to the drawing board kid and try spending your time winding someone else up.
It's the way you intentionally undermine things on here that I object to. The forum enjoys engaging in a meaningful exchange of views. But your intentions are not genuine. You know it and many of the rest of us also know it. You must have something better to do?
...You won't get me to rise to your jibes either.
...You won't get me to rise to your jibes either.