The Road To The 2018 Champion Chase

He’s a horse that always gives. I’d back him at Kempton, but he may end up like Masterminded at Kempton in 2011. The risk we all take.
 
Len Madeiros said:
Does anyone know UDS’s breeding? Would he stay 3 miles? Sprinter was actually bred to stay the distance but was never risked. UDS is a fantastically underrated horse: only a Sprinter Sacre away from completing a Festival hat trick.
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He is related to both Petit Mouchoir and Ptit Zig, so likely nothing really conclusive can be drawn from his breeding, Len.

His Chasers & Hurdlers entry simply states “stays 21f”, before going on to say he would be “one of the more interesting potential rivals to Altior”, when the latter graduates into open company.
 
Bit disappointed that neither Great Field nor Min have an entry in the Fortria this weekend.

Admins: any chance we can split this season's chat into a separate 'Road to the Champion Chase 2017' thread?
 
Anything here to trouble Altior? Does Douvan run in this? I selfishly hope not as I've backed him for the Ryanair, but would love to see the two take each other on.

I have my doubts about Douvan running at all now, and I've got him in 2/3 teams for the ten to follow.
 
Douvan is reported to be in the best form of his life so unless Ricci and Mullins are lying through their teeth we will be seeing him shortly.

There is nothing anywhere to suggest he could not beat Altior with ease.

IMO the best way to compare them if we can is to look at their performances in their Arkles'.

Overall Douvan was 7 seconds faster but what tells us more is he was 2 seconds faster from 3 out which is around 8 to 10 lengths.

Roughly had it been a race from 3 out Douvan would have won by 5 lengths Sprinter Sacre 2nd 5 lengths behind and Altior a further 4 lengths back in 3rd.

If you compare their individual times against the Close Brother chases on the same day again Douvan comes out fully 3 seconds better.

Altior fans will say he only beat Sizing John who was not a 2 miles which is complete rubbish. Sizing John won the Future Champions Hurdle and was never beaten at 2miles over fences bar being beaten by Douvan.

I suppose it's too much to wish for that both end up unbeaten this season and meet in the QMCC but if they do Altior would have no chance IMO
 
Len Madeiros said:
Cheers, Grass.
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Watching the French Champion Hurdle he stopped like shot 2 out so that is hardly encouraging.

If you watch him in the Ryanair Ruby tries to hold him up but simply can't and he just pulls himself to the front.

He was brilliant that day but he was coming to the end of his tether his 5 length lead reduced to 1 1/2 lengths by Sub Lieutenant

There lies the problem if you are thinking King George.

He would make them go if he got good ground, absolutely no doubt about that but hold them off in the closing stages ???? Huge question mark

There's no other way to ride him..His style of running , his exuberance and the fact he is such a naturally fast horse at shorter distances count against him big time
 
Tanlic said:
There is nothing anywhere to suggest he could not beat Altior with ease.
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Except Douvan’s abject display in the QMCC, and Altior’s command performances in open company in the Game Spirit and Celebration Chase

IMO the best way to compare them if we can is to look at their performances in their Arkles'.
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Your opinion is wrong, and the method of calculation you use to form it, is fundamentally-flawed......imo. :cool:


I suppose it's too much to wish for that both end up unbeaten this season and meet in the QMCC but if they do Altior would have no chance IMO
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How would you bet in a hypothetical match?
 
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Tanlic said:
Douvan is reported to be in the best form of his life so unless Ricci and Mullins are lying through their teeth we will be seeing him shortly.
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Where did you see that and given the mixed messages they always put out about their horses, id take anything you have read with pinch of salt
 
The QMCC when Douvan was injured has got nothing to do with anything. The form book alone tells you how silly bringing the Game Spirit into calculations is. Billy Bunter was fitter than Fox Norton was that day.

As for beating Special Tiara 4 lengths so have at least a dozen other horses when he's ran like that. He's 6 for 24 and totally unreliable.

No idea which route Douvan will take but I'd certainly make him fav if both turn up
 
granger said:
Where did you see that and given the mixed messages they always put out about their horses, id take anything you have read with pinch of salt
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I never read it. Ricci was interviewed and he was very bullish about him since he came back in .......saying he was better than he had ever seen him and was working better than ever
 
I've a few issues with this, Tanlic.

Firstly, the way in which Altior beat Fox Norton had very little, if anything, to do with fitness. Altior jumped them ragged throughout, and went away from them with any amount in hand. FN was beaten well before fitness ever became an issue.

Secondly, given he beat the Champion Chaser (Special Tiara) in the same manner as he did the subsequent Punchestown Champion Chase winner (Fox Norton), why would you even question the Newbury form, as if it was an aberration?

Thirdly, if we accept that Sizing John was being run over the wrong trip, Douvan has beaten Realt Mor, Days Hotel, The Game Changer, Velvet Maker and Rogue Trader, over the last two seasons; horses who are infinitely less talented and less reliable, than Special Tiara.

I do not mention this to run Douvan down - principally because he hammered all those horses out of sight - and his level of form when fit is clear to anyone. I mention it only to expose the flaw in your argument that Altior only beat experienced Grade 1 horses, because they 'weren't ready'........and then extrapolating that, to take the view that Douvan would beat Altior "with ease".

Altior beat those horses because he was in a different league to them, and his outings in open company were 100% legit as far as I'm concerned. In my view, there is very between Altior and Douvan in strict form terms, and a Champion Chase battle between the pair is one to be savoured......in the scrap for second behind Great Field. :lol:

:cool:
 
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Tanlic said:
I never read it. Ricci was interviewed and he was very bullish about him since he came back in .......saying he was better than he had ever seen him and was working better than ever
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"Vautour runs in the Gold Cup or stays at home"
 
I tried to search for the post I made at the time but according to our wonderful search engine I have never mentioned Douvan Douvan Douvan since last March.:blink:
 
Tanlic said:
I tried to search for the post I made at the time but according to our wonderful search engine I have never mentioned Douvan Douvan Douvan since last March.:blink:
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To be fair, he isn't trained by Henderson, so this isn't exactly a surprise! :lol:
 
Thirdly, if we accept that Sizing John was being run over the wrong trip, Douvan has beaten...
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This is a crass and craven heresy, known as the Solwhit contention. It was given this name in reference to the futile attempts by unbelievers to denigrate the achievements of the great Hurricane Fly by questioning the merit of repeatedly handing out beatings to the same horse.

That you of all people, one of the staunchest of upholders of the flag of Fly, should fall into such grave error truly shocks me.
 
Grey said:
This is a crass and craven heresy, known as the Solwhit contention. It was given this name in reference to the futile attempts by unbelievers to denigrate the achievements of the great Hurricane Fly by questioning the merit of repeatedly handing out beatings to the same horse.

That you of all people, one of the staunchest of upholders of the flag of Fly, should fall into such grave error truly shocks me.
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Art, I can only imagine that - in your state of shock - you neglected to read the sentence which followed:

"I do not mention this to run Douvan down - principally because he hammered all those horses out of sight - and his level of form when fit is clear to anyone. I mention it only to expose the flaw in your argument that Altior only beat experienced Grade 1 horses, because they 'weren't ready'........and then extrapolating that, to take the view that Douvan would beat Altior "with ease". "

Indeed, it is Tanlic's oblique use of the 'Solwhit Contention' which I was attempting to expose. :cool:
 
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Grasshopper said:
Art, I can only imagine that - in your state of shock - you neglected to read the sentence which followed:

"I do not mention this to run Douvan down - principally because he hammered all those horses out of sight - and his level of form when fit is clear to anyone. I mention it only to expose the flaw in your argument that Altior only beat experienced Grade 1 horses, because they 'weren't ready'........and then extrapolating that, to take the view that Douvan would beat Altior "with ease". "

Indeed, it is Tanlic's oblique use of the 'Solwhit Contention' which I was attempting to expose. :cool:
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The smelling salts are starting to kick in but I am still reeling
 
Arguably Douvan did Sizing John a favour by beating him five times because otherwise he might never have been moved up in trip, given that for a season or two he would have been the best around at 2m.
 
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