The Road To The 2021 Cheltenham Gold Cup

1980 Gold Cup winner Tied Cottage had his warm up over 2 miles at Naas 11 days before the Gold Cup.
Race, a handicap chase was won by Secret Progress who had progressed from Hunter chases to winning Thyestes Chase that season.
He also ran in Gold Cup that year but was unplaced.

Did I read the Racing Post correctly a few weeks ago and get the impression that NJH has declining eyesight ?
 
I don't know, JamesRB. I don't know if I would want my horse to have a 'proper' race that close to a big target.

Nicholls said in recent interview he learned through experience that a hard race in February led to his horses not showing their best at Cheltenham.
 
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edgt said:
1980 Gold Cup winner Tied Cottage had his warm up over 2 miles at Naas 11 days before the Gold Cup.
Race, a handicap chase was won by Secret Progress who had progressed from Hunter chases to winning Thyestes Chase that season.
He also ran in Gold Cup that year but was unplaced.

Did I read the Racing Post correctly a few weeks ago and get the impression that NJH has declining eyesight ?
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This extract:

Of course Henderson's deteriorating sight clips his wings. He says: "I don't play golf anymore and grouse are a thing of the past, but I still enjoy shooting pheasant and partridge, though sometimes I can't tell whether it's a pheasant or a golden eagle. Preferably not the latter.
 
edgt said:
1980 Gold Cup winner Tied Cottage had his warm up over 2 miles at Naas 11 days before the Gold Cup.
Race, a handicap chase was won by Secret Progress who had progressed from Hunter chases to winning Thyestes Chase that season.
He also ran in Gold Cup that year but was unplaced.

Did I read the Racing Post correctly a few weeks ago and get the impression that NJH has declining eyesight ?
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Tied Cottage’s Naas run was his 8th of a 9-race season, culminating in his Gold Cup win, Eddie. Hardly an apples-for-apples comparison for Champ.

Henderson never wants his horse’s to have a hard race. If Champ is going to Newbury for little more than a run around (something I do not dispute, btw), then Henderson should be done for schooling in public.

He has trained some of my favourite racehorses over the years, including my all-time fave Remittance Man, but the way he has campaigned some of his horses - particularly over the last 10 years or so - is nothing short of a joke.

I should add that I’m well aware of his big-races successes over that period, but I want to see racehorses race; not ponce about having racecourse gallops, or being run in thoroughly unsuitable events, where they won’t even be trying.
 
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Desert Orchid said:
I don't know, JamesRB. I don't know if I would want my horse to have a 'proper' race that close to a big target.

Nicholls said in recent interview he learned through experience that a hard race in February led to his horses not showing their best at Cheltenham.
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probably shouldn't have waited so long to get him out then. as far as i know the only issue was having a wind op? just seems like a mess of a preparation for the horse.
 
Grasshopper said:
Tied Cottage’s Naas run was his 8th of a 9-race season, culminating in his Gold Cup win, Eddie. Hardly an apples-for-apples comparison for Champ.

Henderson never wants his horse’s to have a hard race. If Champ is going to Newbury for little more than a run around (something I do not dispute, btw), then Henderson should be done for schooling in public.

He has trained some of my favourite racehorses over the years, including my all-time fave Remittance Man, but the way he has campaigned some of his horses - particularly over the last 10 years or so - is nothing short of a joke.

I should add that I’m well aware of his big-races successes over that period, but I want to see racehorses race; not ponce about having racecourse gallops, or being run in thoroughly unsuitable events, where they won’t even be trying.
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Molly coddlying. Jps loyalty knows no bounds.

I think he was also sent the 500k purchase from the sales last year

If champ was with Nicholls, he'd have been out minimum twice by now and likely 3
 
granger said:
Molly coddlying. Jps loyalty knows no bounds.

I think he was also sent the 500k purchase from the sales last year

If champ was with Nicholls, he'd have been out minimum twice by now and likely 3
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And between Nicholls and Henderson who has done better at Cheltenham?

I would certainly like to see his top horses run more often, but you can’t knock his success in doing it his way.
 
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It's pretty 'normal' in Ireland for stayers to race in shorter races.

What surprises me is how so many of them go off at much shorter than they should at that trip.

I agree that Champ's case is slightly different in that this is his first run for a while but I support the principle of sending him there.

He isn't necessarily 'schooling in public', which is probably the reason for sending him there. He might be close to fitness but he just won't have the fitness or the pace to be competitive. It isn't schooling. It's legitimate.

Plenty of trainers would send them over hurdles to hone their fitness.
 
Trainers would generally send a chaser over hurdles to preserve its chase mark, rather to hone its fitness.

If Champ is close to fitness, there is no reason for him not to be running in the 3-mile race.

If Champ is running on his merits, his record clearly shows he faces a harder race over 2-miles than he does over 3-miles. If he isn’t running on his merits, he has no business being in the race.

Listen, I know this kind of thing goes on, DO, and there’s obviously some truth in what you say.......but this is just the latest in a long list of Henderson making an utter dogs-breakfast of the campaigns of his top horses. It’s so infuriating.
 
Why would you run a dubious jumper over a shorter trip and put his weakness under pressure. If he falls going at pace then they've wasted a whole season.
 
What's he likely to face in the 2 mile chase?

Should we conclude it is now more or less likely that he will in fact end up in the stayers hurdle?

I say the above, in the event he gets beat over 2 miles, and then goes for the Stayers.

It's a possibility.
 
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Slim said:
Why would you run a dubious jumper over a shorter trip and put his weakness under pressure. If he falls going at pace then they've wasted a whole season.
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It's fairly common practice to run chasers over inadequate trips to prep them; the assumed 'hard race' is a convenient stick to beat Hendo with, and probably furthest from his mind.
 
Anyone cite the last Gold Cup contender, Irish or otherwise, to have their prep in a 2m chase? Given that people are claiming it is common practice. The one example given was from 42 years ago.
 
No. Desert Orchid won an epic Victor Chandler a couple of months before his Gold Cup but won a similarly epic Gainsborough chase back over 3 miles a month after Ascot and a month before Cheltenham.

But hardly like-for-like as that was when racehorses raced and again, it was over 30 years ago.
 
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reet hard said:
It's fairly common practice to run chasers over inadequate trips to prep them; the assumed 'hard race' is a convenient stick to beat Hendo with, and probably furthest from his mind.
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Quote from Henderson yesterday re Champ:

”He could be keen and do too much......it is preferable to run him over the shorter distance, which could stop him having a harder race than necessary”.
 
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HawkWing said:
Anyone cite the last Gold Cup contender, Irish or otherwise, to have their prep in a 2m chase? Given that people are claiming it is common practice. The one example given was from 42 years ago.
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Try posting the truth occasionally, rather than your warped version of it,eh?:mad:
 
The various postponements and minor issues with the horse obviously lead to 'thinking outside the box' in the case of Champ.

If I owned Champ I would support Hendo's decision to prep him over shorter. I suppose that's pretty much what I'm trying to say.

While the situations aren't apples and apples, Sizing John started his Gold Cup season over 2m1f and Don Cossack's prep run was over 2m4f and those are just the two previous winners before Al Boum Photo.
 
Desert Orchid said:
The various postponements and minor issues with the horse obviously lead to 'thinking outside the box' in the case of Champ.

If I owned Champ I would support Hendo's decision to prep him over shorter. I suppose that's pretty much what I'm trying to say.

While the situations aren't apples and apples, Sizing John started his Gold Cup season over 2m1f and Don Cossack's prep run was over 2m4f and those are just the two previous winners before Al Boum Photo.
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That is answering a different question, isn't it. Best Mate ran in a 2m handicap at Ascot, Kauto won an Ascot Chase. Gold Cup horses can run over 2m, just it hasn't happened in February of their Gold Cup year.
 
Diamond Geezer said:
No he doesn't

"In a statement, Henderson said: "With regards to Altior and Champ, under the current circumstances and having discussed the situation in detail with all connections involved, we have come to the conclusion that Altior will head straight to the Cheltenham Festival for the Champion Chase without a run beforehand."
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I read the Sporting Life account, They report it differently than all the others:

“With regards to Altior and Champ, under the current circumstances and having discussed the situation in detail with all connections involved, we have come to the conclusion that Altior will head straight to the Cheltenham Festival without a run beforehand.

“He is in excellent form, but he does tend to take his races quite hard and we have therefore decided to continue his preparation at home and almost certainly an away-day at some stage in the next 10 days.”
 
Desert Orchid said:
The various postponements and minor issues with the horse obviously lead to 'thinking outside the box' in the case of Champ.

If I owned Champ I would support Hendo's decision to prep him over shorter. I suppose that's pretty much what I'm trying to say.

While the situations aren't apples and apples, Sizing John started his Gold Cup season over 2m1f and Don Cossack's prep run was over 2m4f and those are just the two previous winners before Al Boum Photo.
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In Sizing John’s case, they were having one last crack at Douvan to see if he was a 2-miler, before upping him in trip, DO. It’s not the same thing.

I think it’s fair enough running your horse over too short a trip, if that’s the only option open to you. But there is a perfectly acceptable alternative at the right trip for Champ, on the same day.

As Slim says, Champ is hardly an accomplished fencer, and only has 4 chase outings under his belt. Running him in a 2-mile Grade 2 (where they inevitably go faster, putting more emphasis on jumping), as a prep for a Gold Cup run - which will only be his 6th chase outing - just seems ridiculous, when the 3m alternative is there.

Ultimately, Henderson and JP can do what they like, so this is all so-much hot-air from the likes of me. But we wouldn’t have much of a forum, if we didn’t take a view on what looks (to me, at any rate) a completely bizarre decision.
 
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HawkWing said:
That is answering a different question, isn't it. Best Mate ran in a 2m handicap at Ascot, Kauto won an Ascot Chase. Gold Cup horses can run over 2m, just it hasn't happened in February of their Gold Cup year.
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Accepted but I think the original claim was that plenty of horses prep (didn't necessarily mean final prep) over shorter.

This is an unusual circumstance and, presumably, not one Henderson would have planned. He's just trying to make the best of adverse circumstances.

I certainly don't see it as any big deal and the up side is that anyone who fancies Champ for the festival might be in a win-win situation here, in that if he just pops round near the edge of his comfort zone and loses (as I expect), his price will lengthen for the festival. If he goes and wins (which I can't see), it strengthens his case for the festival as it will show he has the pace for shorter.

Dick Hern once said Brigadier Gerard would win a Nunthorpe. Ruby Walsh often talks about the difference in pace at different trips being only about 1mph, it's sustaining the pace over the trip that separates the horses.

If they go anything other than a true pace over 2m, Champ shouldn't be too far, if at all, out of his comfort zone. He'd be likely to plug on at one pace in the final half-mile. If they go fast he can just sit off and plug on as the others slow down from the final fence and finish respectably held.

I have no financial interest in Champ for any race at the festival so no axe to grind. I just don't see anything wrong with the idea of running over 2m in the circumstances.
 
https://www.thoroughbrednews.com.au...as-gold-cup-prep-129978?section=International

Nicky has been experimenting lately, he's decided to put some horses on a Fartlek regime. Champ was one of the horses chosen for the experiment. Champ had shown remarkable improvement during this training. On reporting the findings to his owners, who seriously thought he was going mad when he told them of the result's. So he set up an experiment: Champ ran one and a half miles with Altior as a lead horse, only Altior couldn't keep up. Everyone that was there that afternoon, stood there in amazement when, just as Altior gave way, another horse picked up the baton and tried to lead him. They omitted the fences on this second half of the experiment for good reason because Champ was really in rhythm by now and there was no catching him. With a furlong to go on the experiment, the lead horse, who was obviously struggling to keep up, eased off and came home on the bridal. J P asked Mr H, "who was the other horse". On whispering into JP's ear it was obvious from his reaction that it was pure disbelief...."nahhh, no way said JP...." it is" said Mr H....." Shiskin" said JP...."honestly"...."no" said Mr H..." but it was impressive don't you think"? Anyway, the long and short of it is; they have decided to run him over 2 miles in a grade 2, with a view to a Paying a subsidised entry into the Queen Mother Chase.

The reason non of this has been made public, is because people might begin to think Mr H is losing the plot.....never.

So Champ has had a 3m simulation against 2 separate horses, at speed, but a 3-mile race could, in his words be detrimental....Mental more like....

“He will now drop back down to two miles and contest the Game Spirit, instead of the Denman Chase."

“He hasn’t run for a year, ( well that's a lie, you said he's had a simulation) so we could be in danger that three miles may be slightly too far ( but not if we break it into two) for his first run of the season. He is a fresh horse and can be quite free in his races, so it would be harder to curtail enthusiasm and you’re never going to take as much out over two miles as you are over three."

“He could be keen and do too much, so in the interest of the Gold Cup being his ultimate goal, it is preferable to run over a shorter distance, which could stop him having a harder race than necessary and also help eliminate the risk of the bounce factor."

Boying, Boying, Boying.....Is that how you spell the sound of a bounce....

Senility setting in!!!

I am backing Champ to win the Game spirit....It was Shiskin...
 
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