The slaughter and abandoning of horses...

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Bobbyjo

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Horse Trainer Ted Walsh to Consider Problem of Slaughter of Horses at Oireachtas Agriculture Committee
30th March 2010

The increasing problem of abandoned horses and how best to dispose of them will be placed under the spotlight at tomorrow’s (31st) meeting of the Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

Well known horse trainer Ted Walsh and Ted Farrell of BF Meats will attend the Committee to examine the issue. The meeting will take place at 11 am in Committee room 4 of Leinster House.

There has been a reported increase in the number of abandoned horses throughout the country of late. This trend has been attributed to the economic downturn which has meant that some horse owners can no longer afford to look after their animals. Charities working in the area have reported sharp increases in volumes of calls received on this matter.

Committee Chairman, Johnny Brady TD said;
“Unfortunately, like all sectors, the equine industry has not been spared the effects of the downturn. This has resulted in some horse owners choosing to abandon their animals. Inevitably, this causes serious animal welfare issues and raises the question of how unwanted horses should be dealt with.

The meeting tomorrow will consider how this problem can be addressed and will also analyse the procedures and facilities available for slaughter of horses. ”

The Committee can be viewed on line at: http://www.oireachtas.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/livewebcast/Web-Live.htm&CatID=83&m=o
 
krizon said:
I imagine that Ted Farrell of BF Meats knows exactly what to do with them!
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I heard that horse owners need to join a queue for BF Meats and as a result the horses are not being fed in the meantime. this is the extremely sad side of horse racing and ownership but better to come up with a process rather than wish the problem away.
 
But what are you going to do, Grey? I assume the charities' stables are chokker, so no new intakes are possible. But BF Meats ought to buy them, fatten them, and then kill them. They shouldn't buy deliberately underfed ones - they'll do nicely out of the trade, so let them buy at a fair price, feed the horses, the same way Bernard Matthews feeds his turkeys, and do what has to be done.

I hope this redresses Ireland's overproduction problem, and shows the folly of subsidising for what it is - a licence to breed any old cobblers. However, there ought to be a tighter rein on allowing 'anyone' to breed horses, dogs, cats, you name it. If overproducing leads to the 'unacceptable' poor welfare of the animals, then we've surely arrived at the time (as we have with dogs) where breeding should be to licenced premises which are regularly and correctly inspected, and where ALL equines are microchipped as foals, all traceable, all owners accountable.

A reduction in breeding all animals not directly involved in the food chain would seem to be long, long overdue, anyway. How revolting is it that the UK throws away some 150,000 dogs ("nation of animal lovers" my arse) a year, many of which will be pts before finding new homes. I can't remember the amount the Cats' Protection League quoted for its lost felines, but around 70,000 a year are thrown out for one reason or another, onto the charity heap. None of this is 'acceptable', but it goes on year on year.
 
I don't object to sending horses for slaughter, Krizon, what I would find unacceptable is any failure to look after them before they're sent.
 
Then there has to be an acceptable price paid for horse meat, doesn't there ? If you can't afford to feed your horse, then nor can the next person if there's nothing to be made out of doing so - Mr BF Meats isn't a charity. Last I heard here (I live near one of the two licensed for horse slaughter abattoirs in England) it was 50p/kilo dead weight (on the hook). Which wouldn't be more than 100/120kg for average Thoroughbred. Compare that to that to the £2.85/kilo we received three weeks ago for a 611kg deadweight heifer and you can see there's no money in anyone buying horses in to fatten - especiually this year when price of forage/bedding is going through the roof because of the appalling winter/spring we're having.

It might be a thought for some Horse Charities to speand three months fattening up a batch of horses with no hope of being successfully rehomed, sending them for kill and using what money they do make in supporting horses that can be successfully rehomed. But that will never happen because the over sentimental 'horse/pony lovers' really can't see past the the fact that in their eyes, it amounts to murder and they'll squeal their opinions to the papers who will give them airtime because it sells print. It's OK, though, to puff off about having to 'put to sleep' the odd animal with a particularly horrendous story to tell (along with tragic violin music) and, of course, some equines should be killed straight off to prevent any further suffering but there are too many people making a living out of extending animal's lives for very questionable reasons in my book !
 
Grey, I agree with that, naturally, but if horses are starvelings when they arrive to be shot (and get bugger-all return, as Songsheet correctly advises), then who should feed them? If the equine charities can't, because they're already overstocked, the owners won't or can't because they're broke, and the slaughterhouse isn't going to, either, what is the solution? One solution is to reduce the problem at root, which is overbreeding. But in the meantime, the backlog has to be sorted.

If I have three ponies for my children (both being fictional!), and my husband loses his well-paid job and has spent 18 months competing madly to still not get another one, I'll be more concerned about feeding my family than the ponies, who can eat grass. Nobody wants to buy them, because too many other people are in the same boat. The local horse charity says no-can-do, so what can I do? Against the tears and howls of the kids, ask the knackerman to come round, and if he thinks they're in a poor condition, then I can't help it. It's not that I even want the meat money, it's that I can't afford to feed them properly. (Or similar types of stories, I imagine.)
 
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The root problem is the recession. People cannot afford to keep their horses. Over breeding was resulting in horses not getting sold and not getting opportunities to race. The horses by and large wheren't going hungry due to over breeding.
 
We don't know for sure that it's always the recession to blame, Sheikh. It's an easy way out to blame it for abandoning your horses. Horses have always been abandoned, underfed, and cruelly mistreated, even in the most gluttonous of times, so that isn't a one-size-fits-all excuse. But if you have far too many horses and you can't find the buyers or races for them, that points to too many horses, doesn't it? Too many horses for the times we're in, and Ireland overbred by the skipload. We know that - we've discussed it enough recently, and the oversubscribed cards attest to it meeting after meeting. So, they're overbred, overbought, oversubscribed. What to do? If you own them, you ought to feed them, as Grey says. But animal welfare isn't always uppermost in every animal owner's mind, which is another unpalatable truth. But if you find the easiest way out - knowing you won't get that much meat money anyway - is to chuck them into someone's field or tie them to a charity's gates, then that's what you'll do.

The recession has happened in the UK, too, and while there was an initial rush of dumped ponies and more animals appearing at the slaughterhouses, they weren't undernourished. That seems to have quietened down now, as people have perhaps rationalised things a bit more (i.e. not got a new car every year, but kept the dogs), and we don't seem to have the problem Ireland is having. So ask yourself - two countries, both with high horse populations. One previously heavily subsidised to produce 'em, the other not. One with cards filled to bursting, the other down to match races in some extreme cases. Could there be another explanation other than the handy reach for the recession as the excuse?
 
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I was having a conversation the other day about this kind of thing with the OH strangely enough. A pal of his had popped into the yard and was telling us of a visit he had to a friend of his that trains P-T-P horses, he commented to the P-T-P guy that he had a nice yard of horses to which the guy replied in all seriousness to him if you like them pick one. It turned out the fella was getting rid of them (all fit, all healthy) as he simply could no longer afford to carry on, not selling them might I add but actually giving them away for free. During that conversation it turns out horses are actually being swapped for PS games at the minute over here, it really is that bad.

In the same vein horses of any calibre/breed here are struggling to be sold, not just the racers. My OH is adamant it is down to over breeding, like he said here anyone just throws their mares to anything, no papers, no chipping and the outcome is a flood of horses with no where to go. Sure a pal of mine bought two nice wee mares a month ago for absolute peanuts and thought she could turn them at a profit as she normally does, the outcome? Gave them away for free last week and God only knows where they will end up.
The sanctuaries here are chocca block full and are now sending horses over to England which then ads to the problem there, the papers are full of ads asking if you want your unwanted horses collecting, the knacker man is having a right field day. This is a huge problem at the moment make no mistake and as Krizon rightly said it needs addressing and sooner rather than later.

Just to add I don't it is just a recession problem, as Songsheet rightly pointed out the price of keeping a horse of any type has shot through the roof due to one thing or another and people simply just cannot keep up with the rising costs. Say for instance this time last year it cost (not being specific here) £70 a week to keep it in livery, feed it, vets, farrier etc, this year it might cost £90. Even if you are in a well paid secure job that extra cost has to be found somewhere and some people simply can't find it. Plus it will only rise, the weather we are having will see to that. Also if say you bought a horse two years ago for £4000 I can near guarantee you will be lucky to get half of that back now and that is due to flooding of the market. Great time to find a bargain but for selling? Forget it.

Anyway, standing down from my soap box now.:o
 
Very interesting, Soba. There'll be even further hikes in keep costs now that the price of petrol has gone up again, again. No Chancellor can not take a pot-shot at the easiest sitting duck - the vehicle user, be it private use, horsebox, or transporter. Thus the costs will be passed on down the line by the feed merchant, box hire, the vet's per-mile charge, and so on. And no-one cut the horse breeder any slack in the UK during the past 2+ years, either. No trainer reduced charges to encourage a take-up in ownership. They still average around £32-33 per day, excluding farrier, vet, race entry fees, jockey fees, and transport per mile to the track. The farrier didn't cut his price, race entry fees didn't drop, jockeys didn't BOGOf their charges. The only thing that got cut, now down to beyond insulting levels, was prize money. It remains a miracle to me that anyone is interested in buying racehorses in the UK given the absurdity of the prize monies in general.
 
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krizon said:
We don't know for sure that it's always the recession to blame, Sheikh. It's an easy way out to blame it for abandoning your horses. Horses have always been abandoned, underfed, and cruelly mistreated, even in the most gluttonous of times, so that isn't a one-size-fits-all excuse. But if you have far too many horses and you can't find the buyers or races for them, that points to too many horses, doesn't it? Too many horses for the times we're in, and Ireland overbred by the skipload. We know that - we've discussed it enough recently, and the oversubscribed cards attest to it meeting after meeting. So, they're overbred, overbought, oversubscribed. What to do? If you own them, you ought to feed them, as Grey says. But animal welfare isn't always uppermost in every animal owner's mind, which is another unpalatable truth. But if you find the easiest way out - knowing you won't get that much meat money anyway - is to chuck them into someone's field or tie them to a charity's gates, then that's what you'll do.

The recession has happened in the UK, too, and while there was an initial rush of dumped ponies and more animals appearing at the slaughterhouses, they weren't undernourished. That seems to have quietened down now, as people have perhaps rationalised things a bit more (i.e. not got a new car every year, but kept the dogs), and we don't seem to have the problem Ireland is having. So ask yourself - two countries, both with high horse populations. One previously heavily subsidised to produce 'em, the other not. One with cards filled to bursting, the other down to match races in some extreme cases. Could there be another explanation other than the handy reach for the recession as the excuse?
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It's just a simple fact, if there was no recession there would not be a problem with hungry horses. Be interested to hear who was getting subsidised too.
 
I'm guessing Kri means subsidised with regards to the stallion fee tax exemption that Ireland has been running for years - which definitely has resulted in lower stallion fees for comparable stallion elsewhere in Europe and definitely encouraged over production.

I'm not sure what mrussell's 'no comment' remark actually adds to the debate.
 
Songsheet said:
I'm guessing Kri means subsidised with regards to the stallion fee tax exemption that Ireland has been running for years - which definitely has resulted in lower stallion fees for comparable stallion elsewhere in Europe and definitely encouraged over production.

I'm not sure what mrussell's 'no comment' remark actually adds to the debate.
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If I accepted that over production of race horses was the reason for hungry horses now, which I don't (It is a factor in the scale of the problem) I would still say that is a tenuous link.
 
Surely the overproduction of racehorses is directly linked to a surplus of horses that are neglected. I’d agree that with ownership comes responsibility, but in the real world this doesn’t tend to happen in all cases or even very often, for a variety of reasons.
 
Yes, I thought that given our past discussions on overproducing racehorses in Ireland and their stallion subsidies, that would be apparent given the topic in hand. Encouraging over-breeding = too many horses. When there's evidence to blame the recession, and not the simple effect of withdrawing the subsidies, then I'll buy the story. The recession led to many Irish foals and their dams going direct to slaughter - not to being grown-on to become 'horses' and then abandoned, unfed. Until then, I don't buy climate change because we've been spraying our armpits with chemicals, so I don't buy the handy cop-out of the recession as the source of all ills.
 
My rather naive view is that if you wish to buy a thoroughbred, you should be obliged to pay into a horse welfare fund which would be spent on looking after horses when they are retired, unwanted etc. I hate the thought of a slaughterhouse for a horse as much as being put to sleep on a course.
 
Hamm said:
My rather naive view is that if you wish to buy a thoroughbred, you should be obliged to pay into a horse welfare fund which would be spent on looking after horses when they are retired, unwanted etc. I hate the thought of a slaughterhouse for a horse as much as being put to sleep on a course.
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Indeed, there's a big gap between what should happen and what does happen though. When even the Queen's horses end up in Belgian slaughterhouses, something has gone 'wrong' somewhere along the line.
 
Which horse was that?

It is a rather morally corrupt industry in a lot of ways. I would like to thing certain things would change, but I don't think this is something many people are overtly concerned about - most would much rather go on about a tiny percentage overround difference than the welfare of the animals, which is quite sad.
 
mrussell said:
Your post left me wondering what I could say without writing something offensive.

There's no 'debate'.
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There certainly isn't if you have to resort to being offensive to make your point. If your inference is that just because I support a humane and properly conducted horsemeat industry then that's offensive to you, then you're entitled to your view and I'd like to try and understand your viewpoint and maybe clear up some popular misconceptions about it. However, you may of course be vegan, in which case fair play to you and yes, my views would indeed be unacceptable to you.

Hamm: "I hate the thought of a slaughterhouse for a horse as much as being put to sleep on a course." Why ? Again, if you're a vegetarian and I've missed that somewhere else in your posts, then apologies but if you're not, then I honestly do not understand why a higher 'value' is placed on horses as opposed to, say, sheep or cattle.

But then I fail to understand why a higher value is placed on badgers than an in-calf cow, either !
 
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