Time to leave the eu?

I remember well in the lead up to the EU when we all had different currencies, different duty and levy rates , different passports trade was a nightmare. Travel was a nightmare and our Government at the time made us all sign for every penny we took out of the country . It was all a nightmare. Quietly we could build a classic group of countries if we took our proper position in this group and acted responsibly. And lest we forget no major European wars to affect us this last 70 years
 
We still have different duty and levy rates

The passport issue is neither here nor there but the freedom the work across the eu is a plus to some extent and frankly is unlikely to disappear whilst we are happy to allow eu natives work here

We would certainly not go back to exchange controls. That's a given
 
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Two years ago I questioned Ireland accepting bailout from the EU.

I think that the outcome has been proven to be that any country accepting bailout will never get out of its fix, note Spain and Italy's absolute refusal for such option - they have done the numbers and realise!

So, to my mind, it should be not just the UK questioning the value of remaining in many others should be giving serious thought to exit.

MR2
 
Roddy Owen said:
I remember well in the lead up to the EU when we all had different currencies, different duty and levy rates , different passports trade was a nightmare. Travel was a nightmare and our Government at the time made us all sign for every penny we took out of the country . It was all a nightmare. Quietly we could build a classic group of countries if we took our proper position in this group and acted responsibly. And lest we forget no major European wars to affect us this last 70 years
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But the UK wouldn't go back to this position would it?
Just as there have been plenty of wars and confilicts since VJ day in '45 and not confined to outside of Europe either if you think carefully about it.
One of the main differences in the passing of time was the emergence of different super' powers and weapons in play, and lessons learnt. 70 years ago North Korea would have been invaded by now or invaded the South instead of all the posturing which has been going on over the last few weeks.
A lot of the time various countries within the EU go their own way, France not accepting beef imports after everyone was told to; Italy really accepting free trade - they don't regularly I have had numerous problems with their customs as they ignore the rules they want to when they feel like; Greece also.
 
clivex said:
Wrong

Only applies to trade and my bet is that most legislation in that area is pretty well nailed down. Leaving the eu would obviously free us from virtually all remaining rulings (including the fisheries and financial which are certainly not in our interest) and it is the greater push towards political unity that is the issue for many. Not just in uk too
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Always the same with pub bores like you and Farage - if someone disagrees with you they must be wrong .

Please explain how is our agriculture to survive without the EU - a domestic subsidy regime ? and one that is required to pay additionally for trade costs for exporting such produce .

The CFP - so no chance of our fishermen being able to fish in other waters.

It is simplistic nonsense - something you are a past master in spouting.:rolleyes:
 
Surely the cost saving from leaving the EU would be more than enough to subsidise our own agriculture sector? And our farmers would still be able to freely trade with Europe.
 
exactly. i think there are plenty of countries outside the eu that manage to maintain agriculture. As for fisheries we would of course benefit from having a 200 mile limit

I still see new zealand lamb and isreali oranges (just to wind up the bigots on the left again) in the shops so it is just possible that countries can import and export food without having to be part of the CAP

ardross . it is you that came out with the sweeping stupid generalisations about those "that disgaree with you" whilst i simply presented the facts. But you have never really got economics have you?
 
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the point is not altogether where we are now but where we are expected to go. The euro was a disaster and proved that in fiscal terms, the eu and its leaders 'dont know what their doing'. Left and right in ths country called the euro disaster right. They didnt

want to trust this organisation to implement more integration?

and this "integration" is nothing more than a vanity project> far less glamorous to roll things back a bit and take a practical view isnt it?

There is an interesting table produced by the world bank named the "ease of business: index. Very instructive in illustrating the fundamentals for an enterprising economy (the guardian readers fav state venezuela is rock bottom, vying with congo i think)

It takes into account many factors and grades countries accordingly. The uk is second or third in the world. The only other eu country that is close is ireland. This is a big positive and overseas contacts I have from france and elsewhere who reside in london bear this out with their observations. So which way will the eu and their "plans" take us? Only way is down isnt it?
 
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Speaking of sweeping generalisations.......

Northern Europe is enterprising and industrious. Southern Europe is less so - perhaps even feckless and lazy in comparison (possibly the weather is a factor). One day soon, German tax-payers are going to realise this, and they will tear the whole edifice down themselves.

Talk of "No European Wars" is inaccurate - ask anyone who lived in Sarajevo in the 1990s. And there is no evidence that the existence of the EU is a preventative measure in that regard anyway.

Political union within Europe is a great paper idea, that can never be implemented successfully, because:

1. The cultures of the the various people on this continent are too disparate
2. Anything controlled by politicians and/or beaurocrats is effectively cabbaged before it gets out of the blocks.

I like being European, and I like the concept of Europe. But if being part of the EU prevents us from chopping-up Abu Qatada into tiny morsels and feeding them to the pigs, then it can go f*ck itself, quite frankly.
 
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Quite amusing that he wouldnt eat pork but pork would eat him

Agree with the above but a drive towards political union is bound to end up with a lot of push/pull as to who does what and where the powers lie. And despite what many will like to believe, this will certainly not be an issue for the UK alone

The point is that this will expend a huge amount of energy and horrendous cost with suits feeding from the taxpayers trough

and to what real purpose? If the nation states were completely unable to govern themselves then ok maybe theres a case for a greater more mature body but we are hardly talking about a union of Sudan Congo and Somalia here are we?

Its nothing more than just another layer of pointless government.
 
Talk of "No European Wars" is inaccurate - ask anyone who lived in Sarajevo in the 1990s. And there is no evidence that the existence of the EU is a preventative measure in that regard anyway.
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Wrong and doubly wrong. The ex-Yugoslav countries weren't in the EU at the time they went to war. And you might not be aware of it, but Serbia and Kosovo signed a peace treaty last week that is a direct consequence of the fact both want to join the EU.

On the more general issue, when I suggested on here last year that mainstream opinion in the UK was negative towards Europe I was told I was imagining it. I think it's obvious that I was right.

There are long standing historical and cultural reasons why this is so and there are some economic reasons also. It's up to the British people to decide what they want to do, but whatever decision they make I hope it will see an end to the constant barrage of fallacious propaganda of which the above nonsense is just one example.
 
There is a difference between being negative towards europe in the xenophobic sense and being negative towards the eu in its present and future form

Big difference and what is pretty disgusting (but not helped by UKIP) is that any scepticism about the eu is almost immediately tarnished with jibes of racist or crap about wanting "our empire back"
 
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Grey said:
Wrong and doubly wrong. The ex-Yugoslav countries weren't in the EU at the time they went to war. And you might not be aware of it, but Serbia and Kosovo signed a peace treaty last week that is a direct consequence of the fact both want to join the EU.

On the more general issue, when I suggested on here last year that mainstream opinion in the UK was negative towards Europe I was told I was imagining it. I think it's obvious that I was right.

There are long standing historical and cultural reasons why this is so and there are some economic reasons also. It's up to the British people to decide what they want to do, but whatever decision they make I hope it will see an end to the constant barrage of fallacious propaganda of which the above nonsense is just one example.
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I was well aware that the ex-Yugoslav states were not part of the EU, Arthur. It was used as an example within a wider 'European' context, rather than the narrower EU context. For the purposes of this thread, however, I will cede the point to you.......it's not hugely relevant to the current debate, imo.

As for the rest of it, you seem keen to paint UK citizens as somewhat xenophobic. Which is all very well, until you look at rise of anti-Semitism (and other sinister political persuasions) in noddingly-obedient Euro-states such as Hungary. You are choosing to view the Brits in the poorest possible light here - which is ridiculous given the totally passive nature of any dissent. I suggest you look a little bit closer to the continent in your search for xenophobes.

Whilst there is undoubtedly an element of truth in what you say about British attitudes to the European Union, the constituency is very small when it comes to absolute 'Little Englanders' (if I can use that expression). I submit that the vast majority of Brits look at the EU in a much more detached and dispassionate way, and merely ask "What is its purpose?", and find themselves less than satisfied with the answer. The choice is for the individual to make, and the notion that there is a herd-mentality on this is a load of old hooey, imo.

Your position within the Matrix undoubtedly gives you insight not available to the rest of us; and your contributions on such matters are always worthwhile. And because you are within the Matrix, it's only natural that you would stoutly defend the institution and go on the offensive against its detractors.........a bit like a Stepford Wife with a leg in some Bumper horses. ;)
 
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Agree with pretty much everything Grassy has said there.

The knee-jerk "you must be a racist/nazi/xenophobe/ukip nutter if you question the purpose of the EU" reaction really winds me up.

Being perfectly and gently rational about it, I just can't see that the benefits of membership outweigh the costs any more. I think Europe is great, and I love it as a continent. I just don't see the need for us to be politically united.

The key is free trade. This is essential, the rest is just unneccssary and expensive.
 
Where did I say anyone was racist, or xenophobic? And why am I the one accused of a knee-jerk reaction when I very reasonably point out a piece of nonsense? Ask anyone in the Balkans whether the EU has helped bring peace to the region and they would surely say it has, mainly by its mere existence as something all of them wish to be part of.

British opinion is moving in a different direction. There are long standing reasons why that tendency has always been there, some of them rational some of them less so. It's for you Brits to decide what you want to do, but it might help if you get your facts right before making up your minds.

After all, working out what sort of relationship the UK wants for the future and how to negotiate it is going to require a lot of clear thinking rather than emotive anti-Brussels guff.
 
"Constant barrage of fallacious propaganda"

"Emotive anti-Brussels guff"

Wanting a sensible cost/benefit analysis of EU membership is neither of those things Grey, and the assumption that it is is exactly the kind of reaction I was talking about!
 
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Benny, you only have to read some of the other contributions to this thread to see what I mean.

I don't have anything against the British people trying to decide what they should do in a reasoned way, why should I?
 
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Grey said:
Where did I say anyone was racist, or xenophobic? And why am I the one accused of a knee-jerk reaction when I very reasonably point out a piece of nonsense? Ask anyone in the Balkans whether the EU has helped bring peace to the region and they would surely say it has, mainly by its mere existence as something all of them wish to be part of.

British opinion is moving in a different direction. There are long standing reasons why that tendency has always been there, some of them rational some of them less so. It's for you Brits to decide what you want to do, but it might help if you get your facts right before making up your minds.

After all, working out what sort of relationship the UK wants for the future and how to negotiate it is going to require a lot of clear thinking rather than emotive anti-Brussels guff.
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Peace in the Balkans was brought about by a change in US policy to support direct and sustained military action against the Serbs, Arthur. It had nothing to do with the EU, which proved incapable of managing a conflict on its own doorstep.

Indeed, all of the usual levers of power (including the UN and EU) proved themselves to be utterly inept throughout that war. To suggest the EU was responsible for bringing it to an end is rose-tinted wishful-thinking at best, and bordering on fallacious propaganda and/or pro-Brussels guff at worst. ;)
 
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Nobody was going to be able to prevent that war and in my opinion the attacks on the Serbs made the situation worse, not better.

In any case the EU's mission is not to go around the world fixing other people's disputes for them, it is to bring peace and prosperity to its members. It is not a military organisation and it's unreasonable to blame it for wars outside its borders.

But the incentive of EU membership is what convinced the Croatians, Kosovars and Serbs to try and make a proper peace.
 
Grey said:
Nobody was going to be able to prevent that war and in my opinion the attacks on the Serbs made the situation worse, not better.

In any case the EU's mission is not to go around the world fixing other people's disputes for them, it is to bring peace and prosperity to its members. It is not a military organisation and it's unreasonable to blame it for wars outside its borders.

But the incentive of EU membership is what convinced the Croatians, Kosovars and Serbs to try and make a proper peace.
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In which case, don't make claims that the EU were anything other than hapless bystanders during that conflict - especially if you are going to accuse others of "fallacious propaganda" when they offer a different perspective or viewpoint.

You work for the EU, Arthur - not me. It's for others to decide who is pushing propaganda, and who is merely expressing an opinion.
 
Whether it made the situation worse or not, that was not the intention and at least the yanks. 4000 miles away... Tried to resolve Kosovo

If anyone is posting untruths here then they need to be challenged not arrogantly waved away with generalisations about the nature of the posters

So far the arguments for the eu on this thread have been awful
 
Grasshopper said:
I like being European, and I like the concept of Europe. But if being part of the EU prevents us from chopping-up Abu Qatada into tiny morsels and feeding them to the pigs, then it can go f*ck itself, quite frankly.
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Pretty basic error there Grassy.
 
clivex said:
exactly. i think there are plenty of countries outside the eu that manage to maintain agriculture. As for fisheries we would of course benefit from having a 200 mile limit

I still see new zealand lamb and isreali oranges (just to wind up the bigots on the left again) in the shops so it is just possible that countries can import and export food without having to be part of the CAP

ardross . it is you that came out with the sweeping stupid generalisations about those "that disgaree with you" whilst i simply presented the facts. But you have never really got economics have you?
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I got an A in my A Level ! :p
 
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