Time to leave the eu?

Grasshopper said:
In which case, don't make claims that the EU were anything other than hapless bystanders during that conflict - especially if you are going to accuse others of "fallacious propaganda" when they offer a different perspective or viewpoint.

You work for the EU, Arthur - not me. It's for others to decide who is pushing propaganda, and who is merely expressing an opinion.
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I made no such claim. I said it was wrong to blame the EU for a war outside its borders that no one else could prevent anyway. I also said the existence of the EU has helped in the post war period to bring peace to the region, mainly through the simple fact that it exists as an entity that the ex-Yugoslav countries would all like to join.

Read what I said, it's hardly the stuff of propaganda.

And by the way, I am contributing to this debate as an individual who can think for himself and wants to see others doing the same. Don't worry, if you were all starry-eyed admirers of all that is done in the name of Europe and the EU I would be on here telling you to catch yourselves on.

By the way, Gareth has a point, your gripe about Abu Qatada is with the European Court of Human Rights, and not the EU. Maybe you want to leave them too, but they're a separate entity.
 
clivex said:
A level being what exactly ? You shouldnt discuss your private love life here imo
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I am still waiting to hear your qualifications in economics ?

Leaving the EU would be an utter disaster for this country economically - alienating its largest market and politically even worse leaving us subject to EU regulaion but without influence .

As for Nigel Lawson's fantasy that suddenly the UK economy would gain because we would improve our export markets to China and India - another fantasy . Germany seems to trade very successfully with Asia without needing to leave the EU to do so .

The fact that Tory dinosaurs like Lamont, Lawson and Tebbit are emerging from the primeval swamp to tell us to leave is a very good argument for the opposite .
 
I am in favour or an eu which is purely a trading block. Lawson and others are too ( and he has more credentials tan our a levels doesn't he seeing as you want to float your supposed ualifications). I did think the Far East point he made was a little weak

But it is very doubtful it would be a disaster. They need our trade just as much as we need theirs. I think you will find I economics trade isn't a one way street. So naturally a solution would be found. So we are to "lose 3m jobs" as the left disgracefully suggest then they will too. Not going to happen is it?

My objection is the trend towards more integration. It wont work and it simply an unnecessary cost. Waste of time

Grey... Why not grateful about Kosovo. What's the problem ? At least someone was doing something rather than sitting on their hands

And as for echr. So fcking what. Lets get out if that too.
 
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The last line of your post is typically arrogant. Perhaps the fact that absolutely no one of the left has made any convincing argument for the future greater integration of the eu is somewhat more relevant ? In fact no one has even tried ( bar cleggs awful points) and doesnt that tell you something ?

What is clear is that milliband and co are probably every bit as concerned at this disasterous "vision" but lack any ideas as to how to address is. He knows as well as we all do that we will have no option other than to bé swept along unless we get out or there is greater opposition within the eu
 
OK, Arthur - I'll stand down on this. I wasn't really trying to run-down the EU anyway, and maybe Sarajevo was an irrelevant point. I have to concede it's a fairly threadbare argument to suggest the EU having been anything other than a positive incluence for peace on the continent. Ho-hum.

I was probably off-piste with Qatada too, insofar as thinking it was the EU that was preventing us throwing his fat arse on the next flght to Jordan. I thought that the European Convention on Human Rights (and associated law) was under the jurisdiction of the EU. If it's under the jurisdiction of the European Court, then that's also fair enough.

Going back to how the Brits view Europe, I do genuinely think you have it wrong. In my view, it is not a matter of a 'Johnny Foreigner' mindset prevailing - it is much more of a value-for-money argument. I think a lot of this has to do with the current state of the European economies (including the UK's). In times of austerity, and with the squeeze on everywhere, people take a lot more interest in what their tax is being spent on.

Given Britain's position as a Net contributor, it's perhaps only natural that some may view the EU as not providing value-for-money (conceding that some of the 'softer' benefits of EU membership are perhaps being overlooked). This is largely what I meant when I mentioned a more detached/dispassionate approach being adopted to scrutiny of EU membership, and why I don't believe there is any inherent distaste for being part of the wider European community.

It's a pragmatic mindset which prevails at present in the UK, I feel.
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Grasshopper said:
In times of austerity, and with the squeeze on everywhere, people take a lot more interest in what their tax is being spent on.
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I think this is what it boils down to.

Things are tough everywhere and people start to look to protect themselves first and foremost. It reminds me a bit of the denouement of Three Days of the Condor (I haven't read the book of the slightly different title.)

The people don't see the bigger picture. They only see the here and now and they will demand that the government do anything to ensure self-preservation.
 
No you are both wrong

The big concern is not the budget but the loss of sovereignty and greater integration into a culture that many Brits simply can't relate too. That is very much the "big picture"

We have a healthy scepticism of too many layers of government ( see Prescott regional assemblies) and funding of more and more bureacracy. This is the way the eu intends to go

If someone can give the uk populace any good reason why all the above is a positive then well done to them.

Britain can do the eu a favour by taking a strong stance against these rubbish proposals and bringing on board other states who are in current silent agreement.

And I suspect right across Europe there is a depth of feeling that the leaders don't know what they are doing and the bureaucrats are simply self serving e,pier builders.
 
I am in favour or an eu which is purely a trading block. Lawson and others are too
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The EU has always been more than a mere trading bloc, right from its beginnings in the European Coal And Steel Community, which set out to jointly manage the resources which France and Germany had fought over four times in the previous century.

By the time the UK and Ireland joined in 1973 there was already much more going on between the Member States than just trade. There was the CAP, and the regional and social policies were getting started.

If the UK wants only a trading relationship with the EU the logical thing probably is to leave. I agree with clive that trade would probably continue much as before, in the short term at least.
 
I think that if trade continues as it is in the short term then it will in the medium term too unless one side or other wants to restrict which I very much doubt.

Sure the eu is ore than just trade but I also think that if there was a vote tomorrow to stay it would pass. The issue that so called Tory dinosaurs such as lawson are highlighting is the future. Unlike the left, they are prepared to look forward and question and challenge

If the vote swung around what the future is likely to bring and if his is well articulated by someone more credible than Farage then I believe it will be a vote to leave

And rightly so.
 
The comment below comes from a friend in Ireland. I agree with almost all of it. Trade in goods will probably continue much as before if the UK leaves the EU, but is less likely in the service sector. The eurozone will surely want to protect itself from predatory speculation in the City, and this is a likely source of tension.

What the British are proposing to do makes sense for them - they will, I reckon, remain in the EU which will be a hollow construct, and come to some outside arrangement with the important group, the eurozone (like Switzerland or Norway). Britain is no longer an industrial power (I think manufacturing shrank 25% in Thatcher's first four years, and now accounts for something like 8% of GDP). It is a global financial power and it is seeking to influence arrangements worldwide that create the best framework for this to flourish.

The problem is for Europe - north European countries are horrified at the idea of a UK outside the flock, operating its own rules, especially financial. The biggest euro trading centre is now London. But what the Fiscal Compact showed, the euro core is no longer going to allow their integration to be held up by London. So, while they are aghast at what the UK is doing, they are not going to let it prevent them getting on with it. Germany is now prepared to lead this, having for decades avoided taking leadership for obvious WW2 legacy reasons. And of course they have hardly put their toe on the accelerator but the posters appear in childish states with Merkel in SS uniform and the rest of it (cheered on continent wide by the even more childish "left").

Irish trade with UK will continue as before, but we are economically strong enough (despite setbacks) not to be totally dependent on this. There is no reason to believe that this will be disrupted - look at Norway/Sweden, Austria/Switzerland etc who also have close economic and trading ties and can get on with it despite EU/eurozone boundaries. Garret Fitzgerald realised this and established the "Principle" at the time of the British EEC referendum that if they left, we would stay in and build through close alliance with Franco-Germany.

I don't think the British are being delusional, but taking off in a direction they are happier with. I have relations in England, who are now nice middle-class types in Sheffield, Oxford etc. All were generations long Keynsian Labour, pro-EU, even pro-euro. Even they are all now eurosceptic, and think the Pound has other interests and the world is bigger than "Europe" etc. It seems to me the tide in the UK is now irrevocable, especially as the eurozone too is irrevocable and the shape it is taking on is abhorrent to every aspect of British tradition."
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That's a good summary

Some minor points I wouldn't agree with perhaps and the manufacturing figures are almost certainly overplayed but overall it's probably accurate
 
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