Time to leave the eu?

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clivex

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Big piece by Nigel lawson in the times today and whilst I've only speed read it so far, it is, as you would expect, strongly reasoned. Far more important than some UKip knee jerk saloon bar drivel

Fact is that what is the eu for?

I have no problem and generally agree with he benefits of a trading zone. That's logical but the eu use is towards policital union more than economic. Thus the failed euro

So why does the uk need an extra layer of very expensive and brureaucratic government? What for? This country has functioned perfectly adequately without it and to all intents and purposes, still does. Government that is not actually required is simply pointless and a drain on resources

And there is a vindictiveness towards our most important sector. The city. That's too vital to the economy to be comfortable with

It is possible that some manufacturing could be hit be an exit but I sense that could be overplayed of a number of reasons

A stongly scaled back eu would appeal to me. One that was simply about the trade and I get a sense that there is adrift towards that view on the continent. Especially in Scandinavia

What is distasteful about the pro argument is that there's always a sneering about little England and so on as if not wanting to pay (8 billion a year) for a layer of bureaucracy we can manage without perfectly adequately is somehow small minded.

There are other benefits to the eu and maybe they will spring to mind ... But overall I'm questioning this membership strongly now
 
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Surely China must fancy it? Or how about some rich despot sick of EU sanctions?

Or perhaps an management-LBO by France and Germany. That would be fitting.
 
Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg said that leaving the European Union would "make us less safe because we cooperate in the European Union to go after criminal gangs that cross borders".

He said it could put 3m jobs at risk and made it difficult to deal with cross border threats like climate change and would also see Britain "taken less seriously in Washington, Beijing, Tokyo".

the 3m is probably bollocks. Explain why please nick?

and the rest...is that the best you can come up with?
 
Would we not lose out in a big way trading wise whereby the other EU countries would rather trade with each other instead of us wherever possible? I don't know, it's just the first thing that sprang to mind.
 
Possibly with the benefits of a single market gone but its hard to say how much. That's why I would favour the eu becoming just an economic trading entity. The other side of it is that they would lose one of their biggest markets so would want to accommodate

On the other hand it might make no difference at all. At the end of the day trade is ultimately governed by buyers and sellers and not dictated by governments unless they want to impose barriers which again works both ways
 
My opinion is to leave the EU would be the biggest mistake this country could ever make. We had a vote to go in ,thats why we are in there. In my view the anti Europe hysteria generated by the media is mainly led by the US which is terrified of a strong Europe. As the CIA influences most of our popular press its easy for them. Never any praise for the good things the EU does. Never any signs put up crediting them for help with new roads and communications. Just a continuous carping.
 
I'm with Clive (for once). Free trade has enormous benefits, as any economist will tell you, but the rest of the EU is just a very costly exercise in bureaucracy.

It's a political project set up to stop another European war happening by integrating it as a unit. We don't need it.

There are no signs up telling us what the EU has done because it does bugger all for us - like Germany we just foot the bill.
 
Roddy. Cant have any of that at all. The paranoia argument is not exactly one top stack the facts and concerns up against is it?

The us is far from being terrified by "a strong europe". I think most yanks would laugh their head off at that one.This comes down to the myth that trade is automatically competitive. The US benefits from a prosperous europe not one that (as is the case now) thats failing. That's for pretty obvious for both trade and security reasons.

Whats there to be afraid of? Are we going to go to war with them or something?

Roads and communications? What? You think nation states cannot do that for themselves? The fcking romans built roads and they werent in the EU
 
I'm in Portugal at present and you can't move for signs saying "project funded by the EU, cost €xm". They don't exist at home because the EU doesn't fund projects in the rich countries. It's highly redistributive - money flows from us and the Germans into the poorer southern states.

This fiscal redistribution is necessary in a currency union because the southern states are stuck with a currency which is too strong, making them uncompetitive.

We, on the other hand are not part of the monetary union, and I don't see why we should be part of the fiscal side either.

The EU today is very different from the one to which we signed up.
 
There are no signs up telling us what the EU has done because it does bugger all for us
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Nick Cleggs answer said it all really. Reaction has to be....is that it??

Im still strongly for the free trade area but the political unification has to stop and be rolled back big time. It can be a cliche perhaps but culturally in the uk we are healthily suspicious of "big government"

I think it has become an issue of when rather than if we leave the EU if the "project' isnt restructured and then it will be interesting to see who may follow. After the failure of the euro and the clear demonstration that the eu "leaders" couldnt organise a corner shop till, i suspect pro lazy overpaid bureaucrat sentiment is not what it was across the area
 
clivex said:
Roads and communications? What? You think nation states cannot do that for themselves? The fcking romans built roads and they werent in the EU
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Well, Britain can't. Living in France has re-inforced yet again that British transport (tube AND trains) are not true first world transport systems, or even close.
 
I use the tube 3/4 times a week and all different lines. Its way better than it was 10 years ago. Rarely experience any delays. For instance on the victoria, bakerloo central and jubilee lines you get a 6 carriage train every 2 minutes maximum. That to me is a working system

Same with SWT which i use just as frequently. I never check to see if trains are on time now because i know they invariably are and there are far more out of my station than was the case 15 years ago

Train usage in the UK has boomed last few years so clearly not everyone thinks it doesnt work

Side issue anyway
 
From TFL website

2013 has also seen peak frequency of 33 trains per hour introduced on the Victoria line, where passengers now enjoy the highest frequency train service anywhere in the UK.
Only four other metros in the world now operate any lines with a higher frequency than LU does on the newly-upgraded Jubilee and Victoria line
 
Never any praise for the good things the EU does. Never any signs put up crediting them for help with new roads and communications. Just a continuous carping.
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Simple fact is this

Do these "good things" outweigh a net contribution of £8 billion p/a

Are these "good things" something that we as a nation couldn't provide for ourselves ? (obviously answer is no of course)

I rest my case
 
The point is that in fact leaving the EU would mean many of the same restrictions but no influence at all . Norway has to comply with EU regs to have entry to the free trade area f the EU but has no vote and no influence on those regulations.

Those who wish to leave the EU largely are living in a fantasy world where they could turn the clock back to the 1950s and the days of Empire. It is no surprise that UKIP are most popular amongst the over 50s .
 
Wrong

Only applies to trade and my bet is that most legislation in that area is pretty well nailed down. Leaving the eu would obviously free us from virtually all remaining rulings (including the fisheries and financial which are certainly not in our interest) and it is the greater push towards political unity that is the issue for many. Not just in uk too
 
The second part of your post is patronising insulting and basically stupid. Typical lazy knee jerk left

Yes of course. Nigel lawson is an unthinking saloon bar bore isn't he? FFS

The valid points for leaving have been made quite clearly and by making thick headed generalisations clearly indicates that you cannot start to address those points
 
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