Tingle Creek Chase

No. But VPU was ridden to win that race, he tried taking Master Minded on and paid the penalty. If Kumbeshwar had tracked SS or tried to he'd have finished nearer Kinkeel than the winner.

Horses that are ridden to place are always flattered by their proximity to outrageous winners. Just like Frankel's 2000 Guineas.
 
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He is around 20lb inferior.

Here are some of the things that were said by prominent forum members after the QMCC in 2008

Best Qm performance that I have seen. MF and Az probably would have done something similar to VPU, but that's the best I've seen a Champion CHase won ever.
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There shouldn't be a fear of giving a 190+ rating if the horse proves he deserves it, and especially so in a Championship race.
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This could be one the all time greats in it's infancy...some infancy

how good can this one be????

just when we think we are blessed with KS & Denman...this horse throws in an amazing show.
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Sensational, truly sensational, possibly the best performance I've ever seen by a horse.
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I think Master Minded put a monstrous performance today,
I rated VPU before the race in something like 169 and I think it is very likely he posted today a 165 or similar, this puts Master Minded in a rating of 188P, the best figure I have put to a horse since I have ratings.

The world is at his feet, 5yo and in the hands of a very good trainer.
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The only performance, ever, by a racehorse that excited me as much was when Golden Cygnet won the SN. That was pure class. I hope he stays well.
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Can we stop saying the best horse since Desert Orchid now? I'm old enough to remember Dessie, but Master Minded looked and has the ratings to put him ahead. Just happy to have been around to see it.
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Oh to have been there to see what is almost certainly the best display of jumping since I started watching racing. The apparent ease underlined the sheer class of the horse.
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I think Flagship Uberalles suffered from two things:

- Being really inconsistent - supposedly due to back problems
- Form tailing off after his 7yo career - he still managed to win his Champion Chase despite his best days being behind him!

The second part meaning he never got the recognition he probably deserved - whilst Azertyuiop, Well Chief and Moscow Flyer were definitely better, they weren't beating anything like the same horse from a few years previously.

I think he should be about 175 / 176 - he was at least as good as Sizing Europe IMO.
 
Voy Por Ustedes was a 165-168 chaser at his best. He suffered from trying to go with MM in 2008 and probably posted a 160. That puts MM on about 180. Not quite as good as the big three he succeeded but visually more impressive.
 
Voy Por Ustedes won the worst Arkle/QM combination in history, and was no better than 160 at the top-end.

VPU was essentially rated on the races he won, rather than the performance achieved in those races, and the BHA had pretty-much no option other than to throw a 180+ in the direction of MM, when he cuffed VPU - because they'd rated VPU too high in the first place.

Master Minded was clearly a top-class animal, but has nothing like the supporting-cast that MF had to underpin his very high rating. I still firmly beleive that the only way MM would ever beat MF, was if the latter hit the deck in-running.
 
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I loved Well Chief but he wouldn't have stood a chance with Master Minded that day. Master Minded, on that performance alone, would have beaten every other QM CC winner, including Moscow. We can all use our different barometers of what defines the best horse (ability, rating, longevity, group 1 wins etc) but Master Minded that day has no equal in terms of a QM CC performance.
 
Master Minded's performance in the Queen Mother was for me the single most breathtaking jumping performance I have seen, the great thing about Moscow was that he turned out top performances again and again.
 
Hamm said:
I loved Well Chief but he wouldn't have stood a chance with Master Minded that day. Master Minded, on that performance alone, would have beaten every other QM CC winner, including Moscow. We can all use our different barometers of what defines the best horse (ability, rating, longevity, group 1 wins etc) but Master Minded that day has no equal in terms of a QM CC performance.
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Moscow Flyer's 2L defeat of the 177-rated Well Chief, with 13L back to the 178-rated Azertyuiop (error at water, never in contention thereafter) is better form than dismissing VPU by 15L, imo.

At the very least, you can say that the form is rock-solid - which is not the case with MM's Champion Chase win.....which is a swiss-cheese in terms of the rating it was afforded.
 
Cantoris said:
You can put Hawk Wing's Lockinge in the same category as Master Minded. A horse can look very very good on one day but on no other day.
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That thought was going through my mind as I typed. I think the difference is that Hawk Wing's Lockinge ended up not particularly fast-run, likewise Frankel's Guineas. The latter went on to rack up higher figures both on form and on the clock whereas something clearly didn't go right for Hawk Wing (who would have been a very wide margin Derby winner without High Chaparral).

However, Master Minded did subsequently win big races racking up muscovite figures in the process but he seemed to lose his consistency. He was also treated for a breathing problem but ultimately seemed to lose his form at a young age, not unlike The Fellow and, I fear, Long Run.

Despite all that, I would have to rank him in the same breath as the best 2-milers I've seen.
 
Euronymous said:
Horses that are ridden to place are always flattered by their proximity to outrageous winners. Just like Frankel's 2000 Guineas.
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I don't think anything was ridden to place that day. No-one expected Frankel to hare off like he did and they all tried to go with him. He burst them after two furlongs and was slowing down quite a bit himself at the end.
 
Azertyuiop's jockey was clearly impressed:
He is better than a machine, he is an aeroplane. He can jump high into the air and still not lose ground. I wasn´t really sure how I was going, I gave him a squeeze he just kicked into another gear and he was away. He is an incredible horse to ride. Everything seems so easy for him. The hardest thing with him is staying on his back, not riding him. I´ve ridden different horses that have done wonderful things on different days. What he did last year as a five-year-old in the Champion Chase, to me that was phenomenal. When Kauto Star won the Betfair, Tingle Creek and King George back to back, that was an unbelievable performance and Denman´s Sun Alliance, Papillon´s National. Different horses on different days have done wonderful things. This fellow seems to do it every day. Papillon used to jump like him and I thought I would never ever ride another leaper like him. This fellow is so sure of what he is doing. He knows how much power he has. He beat real good horses last year, proper championship horses like Voy Por Ustedes, and he annihilated them. To me he is a one in a million horse. What I go racing for is horses like this. -Ruby Walsh, Jockey.
 
reet hard said:
Azertyuiop's jockey was clearly impressed:
He is better than a machine, he is an aeroplane. He can jump high into the air and still not lose ground. I wasn´t really sure how I was going, I gave him a squeeze he just kicked into another gear and he was away. He is an incredible horse to ride. Everything seems so easy for him. The hardest thing with him is staying on his back, not riding him. I´ve ridden different horses that have done wonderful things on different days. What he did last year as a five-year-old in the Champion Chase, to me that was phenomenal. When Kauto Star won the Betfair, Tingle Creek and King George back to back, that was an unbelievable performance and Denman´s Sun Alliance, Papillon´s National. Different horses on different days have done wonderful things. This fellow seems to do it every day. Papillon used to jump like him and I thought I would never ever ride another leaper like him. This fellow is so sure of what he is doing. He knows how much power he has. He beat real good horses last year, proper championship horses like Voy Por Ustedes, and he annihilated them. To me he is a one in a million horse. What I go racing for is horses like this. -Ruby Walsh, Jockey.
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Can you dig out the Walsh quotes from after the Connaught Chase a couple of years back, reet. :D

Not sure you would expect him to say much else after a 5yo has hacked-up in the Champion Chase by 15L. It has nowt to do with the actual form displayed on the day though.
 
Bar the Bull said:
Top 2m Chasers by RPR since 1988:
186 Master Minded
182 Moscow Flyer
181 Desert Orchid
180 Sprinter Sacre
179 Azertyuiop, Kauto Star, Well Chief
176 Sizing Europe
175 Big Zeb, Finian's Rainbow
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Wow, never new Sizing Europe, Big Zeb & Finian's Rainbow were rated higher than Remittance Man & Barnbrook Again. Amazing.
 
Interesting. BA won a handicap off 168, so you'd think an OR of 175 would be on the cards and an RPR of closer to 180.

Are the archived ratings adjusted for slippage?

I remember the slippage adjustment tended to be applied more often to hurdlers although it looks like the handicappers have a system in place nowadays to negate any slippage at all.

This is good debate, though.
 
Interesting. BA won a handicap off 168, so you'd think an OR of 175 would be on the cards and an RPR of closer to 180.

Are the archived ratings adjusted for slippage?

I remember the slippage adjustment tended to be applied more often to hurdlers although it looks like the handicappers have a system in place nowadays to negate any slippage at all.

This is good debate, though.
 
Moscow Flyer 174 OR after he won his first TC which was his best performance IMO

Master Minded came out of his first win with 186 rating

The latter got his rating for beating another QMCC winner in Voy Por Ustedes who was possible the poorest winner of the race in history and was grossly overrated by the handicapper.

Right now Sprinter Sacre has a OR of 169 and It's hard to judge if his performance yesterday was an awful lot better than his Arkle win

So we have
Master Minded 186
Moscow Flyer 174
Sprinter Sacre 169


I'm saying nothing other than Nonsense!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Indeed DO, a great debate.
Tks for putting up QMCC 2008 analysis btw.
MM and Dunguib in bumper were 2 of the 3 most impressive Cheltenham festival wins of my time, the other being Golden Cygnet in 78.
Slippage adjustment ideally should be made to account for nostalgia whereby in the good old days the summers were warmer, the nights longer, the fences bigger etc.
Pearlyman was rated above DO at his peak.
Katabatic, Bobsline, Badsworth Boy, Viking Flagship, the list of top 2 milers is a long one.
VPU not to be underrated as he was chasing at 5 also and was a hard knocking horse until put to the sword by MM; more evidence of burn out.
Bar the exception there is only so much mileage in any horse esp when giving their all day in and day out.
Keep the good memories coming !
 
Tanlic said:
Moscow Flyer 174 OR after he won his first TC which was his best performance IMO

Master Minded came out of his first win with 186 rating

The latter got his rating for beating another QMCC winner in Voy Por Ustedes who was possible the poorest winner of the race in history and was grossly overrated by the handicapper.

Right now Sprinter Sacre has a OR of 169 and It's hard to judge if his performance yesterday was an awful lot better than his Arkle win

So we have
Master Minded 186
Moscow Flyer 174
Sprinter Sacre 169


I'm saying nothing other than Nonsense!!!!!!!!!!
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if you think its higher than 169..could you show how using the rest of the field to rate off from Saturday?

if you say ease of win..then i don't believe thats allowed for..ratings are based on whats on paper..thats why its not 200..because my view of ease of win won't be the same in lbs as yours or DO's or anyone else's
 
Tanlic said:
So we have
Master Minded 186
Moscow Flyer 174
Sprinter Sacre 169
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No-one is saying Sprinter Sacre is no better than 169.

I think just about everybody on here believes he is either close to or better than 180. What we're saying is that a 15 length defeat of Kumbeshwar equates to a bare figure of about 169. It might have been a 30+ length defeat of Kumbeshwar but the horse wasn't ridden to do that.

Until he beats a 20lbs better horse than Kumbeshwar by 15 lengths he won't get a 185+ rating but it doesn't mean he isn't up to it or even well beyond it..
 
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Not at all Reet I believe the handicapper was spot on when he gave Master Minded a 186 rating in only his 4th chase win in the UK which was his first ever run in a Grade 1 chase.

I mean to say Denman had only won 13 of his 14 races at the time and Kauto had only won 2 King George's and a Gold Cup by then.:blink:

After all Voy Por Ustedes had beaten Dempsey a 20/1 shot and River City 33/1 after Well Chief fell and New Mill ran like a cow.

The fact the VPU had only won 1 race at 2/5 from 4 attempts prior to running like a dead fish in Master Minded's QMCC was totally irrelevant to the genius handicapper.

I mean the guys a brilliant judge currently according to him the best horses in training are or the best performances are

Finian's Rainbow 173
Long Run 172
Silvianno Conti 172
Tidal Bay 171
Bobsworth 171
Riverside Theatre 170
Sprinter Sacre 169

Perhaps you rating experts should pop into Seven Barrows and let Nicky and Barry know that Sprinter Sacre isn't the best they have ever had in their lives it's Finians Rainbow who wouldn't blow wind up the Black Aeroplanes ar$e.

Even Better tell Timeform that the 180P next to Sprinters name and the 174 against Finian's is a crock of sh!t.

Barry must look at these OR's of the handicappers and think the fooker is stone mad. He has 3 other Seven Barrows inmates ahead of Sprinter Sacre as well. A fact that not one single person in racing with half a brain would agree with

They must have a method of rating as you put it Reet but it is severely flawed and is only one man's opinion at the end of the day.

At least Timeform use their imagination. if they didn't would Frankel be the highest rated flat horse of all time?

The problem with ratings is the handicapper keeps puting himself in the sh!t by overrating horses and when something else thrashes them he has no choice but to give horses stupid meaningless ratings that simply don't stand up to scrutiny and are disproved way to many times or we'd all be rich. The reason he can is they very seldom if ever run in handicaps

The fact is Sprinter Sacre could beat the likes of Kumbeshwar by a fence plus if Barry set out to do it and if the Handicapper can't see that then he's an idiot. his 2 plus 2 = 4 IMO is a load of crap. Yes he has to work to rule as we have handicaps every day and it works pretty well but the ratings he gives top horse who never run in handicaps are totally unrealistic and without imagination.

Getting back to Master Minded VPU should have been dropped 10 lbs before MM beat him which would have had MM on a realistic mark of 176 because that's as near as dammit as he really was but the Handicapper couldn't drop VPU without dropping hundreds of others and that is where the system is severely flawed.

He did however mange to drop Master Minded back down to 178 in no time at all........how come if the method of rating is so perfect?

The answer is simple ''he didn't have to drop hundreds of horses in training to do so

It would seem the handicapper has one rule for horse "A" and another for horse "B"
 
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