Tingle Creek Chase

Quick check with the stopwatch shows that - in a race run 1.3 secs quicker than Sanctuaire's Game Spirit - he actually took 1.07 secs longer to reach the pond fence, so the notion that he went off too quickly doesn't hold water.
He didn't; just had another horse to race against, and capitulated almost instantly.
You simply cannot compare times a year apart as ground conditions connot possibly be the same but let's say for a moment you can. 1.07s is about 5 lengths. Sanctuaire was weakening a good furlong before the Pond fence because he had gone too fast in the previous mile and a half.

I would argue if anything it lends weight to the went-too-fast theory.
 
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Sanctauire ran 10 seconds faster than the novice

they didn't go hard in the novice but 10 seconds is a lot faster early..
10 seconds is almost three-quarters of a furlong. In weight terms, the equivalent of about 56lbs. If Captain Conan is a 150 novice, Sactuaire would need to be Arkle to keep up that gallop.
 
It's clear this fellow would have cantered all over Moscow Flyer.

Hamm, whilst I agree with the general sentiment that Sprinter Sacre might be the best 2m we've ever seen, it's premature to do so just yet.

The above statement takes so generous an interpretation of yesterday's form, that you would be as well saying Sprinter Sacre is better than Arkle - because that argument holds just as much water.

It was a tremendous performance yesterday, but it was more about the style in which he did it, and the promise of what's still to come, than the rating he ran too. In the here and now, it's an insult to a great horse to suggest that the Sprinter Sacre of yesterday would beat, let alone 'canter all over', Moscow Flyer.
 
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Look, the bottom line is this is the best two miler any of us have seen. Ratings tell us nothing. It's clear this fellow would have cantered all over Moscow Flyer, that's how good he is. You can't use ratings on this occasion, merely trust your eyes that you are seeing a horse who could be THE all time great.


You can't merely just disown ratings when they don't suit your argument. You have used ratings many time to try and prove your point in the past

Regarding cantering all over MF, get real and take off your blinkers. SS is visually amazing but keep all your cantering all over MF for another 3 year or so


Unrelated to this but for all the rest of you, Does anyone have any concerns over the longetivity of SS given how good he is now (a freak), the fact he is French bred and so precocious?
 
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No real concerns on that score, granger. He remains quite lightly-raced overall, and didn't see the track at all in France. Long Run has, in comparison, run in twice as many races, despite being only a year older.
 
Ther is always a concern with big fast fencers that something goes wrong, even at relatively young ages.
I honestly thought that Master Minded win in 2mile Champion as a 5yo was the greatest chase performance in my lifetime( since 1975)
Look what happened him; plenty of good wins but never again looked as invincible.
I do hope SS lasts the distance, like Kauto Star did.
 
Just watched the race for the first time and SS was simply awesome. Sanctuaire ran to an almost identical performance as when beating Somersby as he was about a second slower carrying 5lb more in identical conditions. The question is what is Sanctuaires true rating? with Kumbeshwar finishing second it doesn't look great but the race was 6 seconds faster than Captain Conan in the Novices. Would have loved Sanctuaire to have finished well ahead of the rest of the field but sadly for me Sprinter Sacre never came out of second gear and probably only had to run to a mark of low 160's there to win in a canter. I suspect Sanctuaire may need a long rest where SS wont even know he's had a run.
 
You can't merely just disown ratings when they don't suit your argument. You have used ratings many time to try and prove your point in the past

Regarding cantering all over MF, get real and take off your blinkers. SS is visually amazing but keep all your cantering all over MF for another 3 year or so


Unrelated to this but for all the rest of you, Does anyone have any concerns over the longetivity of SS given how good he is now (a freak), the fact he is French bred and so precocious?

Blinkers? No need to be like that.

I gave an opinion, nothing more, nothing less. If you prefer, I can put the words in my opinion before all that I post.

I dont pretend to have facts or evidence, but to my eyes, Sprinter Sacre already looks the best horse I've seen. He'll likely never post high figures till stepped up next season, if he is at all.

Moscow Flyer was an amazing 2 miler, I'm well aware of that. I'm not suggesting SS has his achievements, he doesn't yet.

Sprinter Sacre is a level above MF, the kind of 2 miler I didn't know could exist. He's that good.
 
It is possible that he will be someday.

He is an immensly likeable horse and one that could transcend the sport.

For the sake of racing, I hope he is more Kauto and less Masterminded
 
network is a german horse not french (his sire is monsun) so no worries on that score in fact german horses generally stoutly bred so his breeding should be an assett to his longtitivity
 
I'm a huge Sprinter Sacre fan and never thought another horse would come close to Moscow Flyer so soon, let alone suggest that he is better...the great thing about MF, though, is that he always did what he needed to do to win bar that time at Aintree when he pissed in. In that regard, he was never going to please the ratings people...

What I will say, though, and someone alluded to it above - when Masterminded won his Queen Mother by a street, he was given a crazy figure...

But when we look for a measure of Sprinter Sacre now, we look to Moscow Flyer and that says enough about Moscow for me - it's because he was able to do it consistently over a period of time, which to me is more of a measure of greatness than a stunning one-off display,

Sprinter looks to be an absolute freak, and he'll win the Queen Mother without breaking sweat fitness permitting, but he'll need another two seasons of this before he touches Moscow in my book...
 
network is a german horse not french (his sire is monsun) so no worries on that score in fact german horses generally stoutly bred so his breeding should be an assett to his longtitivity

He is french bred though. The point others were making i think is that Frenchies tend to start early and therefore burn out earlier. Sprinter has had an easy start to life so shouldnt be affected by the "french issue"
 
The worry for Sprinter Sacre is his breathing will likely be an issue at some stage. Henderson has alluded to this and is clearly a little worried.
 
I'm a huge Sprinter Sacre fan and never thought another horse would come close to Moscow Flyer so soon, let alone suggest that he is better...the great thing about MF, though, is that he always did what he needed to do to win bar that time at Aintree when he pissed in. In that regard, he was never going to please the ratings people...

What I will say, though, and someone alluded to it above - when Masterminded won his Queen Mother by a street, he was given a crazy figure...

But when we look for a measure of Sprinter Sacre now, we look to Moscow Flyer and that says enough about Moscow for me - it's because he was able to do it consistently over a period of time, which to me is more of a measure of greatness than a stunning one-off display,

Sprinter looks to be an absolute freak, and he'll win the Queen Mother without breaking sweat fitness permitting, but he'll need another two seasons of this before he touches Moscow in my book...

Good to see you back.
 
Just watched the race for the first time and SS was simply awesome. Sanctuaire ran to an almost identical performance as when beating Somersby as he was about a second slower carrying 5lb more in identical conditions. The question is what is Sanctuaires true rating? with Kumbeshwar finishing second it doesn't look great but the race was 6 seconds faster than Captain Conan in the Novices. Would have loved Sanctuaire to have finished well ahead of the rest of the field but sadly for me Sprinter Sacre never came out of second gear and probably only had to run to a mark of low 160's there to win in a canter. I suspect Sanctuaire may need a long rest where SS wont even know he's had a run.

Sanctuaire's probably a mid 150's chaser at best, who got lucky in the Game Spirit.
His bull-at-a-gate style of racing means he always going to be vulnerable when he can't go clear off an easy lead, and his trainer - despite the plethora of decent 2m races in the meanwhile - is already talking of the Celebration Chase as his next viable target. Given the track, and the likely ground that late in the season, it's not difficult to figure out why.
 
Surely the best 2 mile chaser ever was Flyingbolt ?

Sprinter Sacre was dazzling yesterday but he beat very little - (anyone who thinks Sanctuare ran to 166 yesterday needs treatment)- albeit spectacularly impressively - no Sizing Europe , no Finian's Rainbow or Cue Card .

His price is very silly albeit he is much the most likely winner of the QMCC.
 
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Agree re. The price for the QM although I cannot see him beaten.Think we will see his price go bigger.They'll want to take some money plus we don't know the plans regarding flemenstar.If things don't go to plan at xmas I can see him being aimed at the QM instead of the GC.Im not saying for one minute he'll beat the aeroplane but credible challenge.
 
But that crazy figure added up and, iirc, the time backed it up. I might try and dig out the details, time permitting.
2008 QMCC

1. MM (OR 170)
2. VPU (169)
3. Fair Along (152)
4. Schindlers Hunt (154)
5. Newmill (159)
(and three others all on ORs higher than Schindlers)

Dist: 19L (count 'em), 16L, 1L, 8L
Going G-S
Time 3.8s slow

RP Analysis (the italics and colours are mine):
A simply sensational performance from MASTER MINDED in what had been one of the most keenly anticipated races of the festival, the five-year-old, the first of his age to succeed in the race's 49 runnings, trouncing last year's winner Voy Por Ustedes by the sort of margin not seen in this event since the days of Badsworth Boy, who won the first of his three successive 2m Champion Chases at the age of eight way back in 1983.

While it did not look as if there was quite the strength in depth at the top end that we became accustomed to in the recent golden era that was dominated by the likes of Moscow Flyer, Azertyuiop, Well Chief and Flagship Uberalles, the field of eight featured four runners for whom one could make decent cases for and looked a cut above the two most recent renewals. Yet in a race that concerned only the first two from the fourth-last, Master Minded won in a manner that had to be seen to be believed.

What's more, in winning eased down by 19 lengths from Voy Por Ustedes (BHA rating 170, Racing Post Rating 169) he put up a performance that entitles him to be rated higher than Moscow Flyer, who is generally acknowledged to have been the best two-miler of recent years, and higher even than his stable-mate Kauto Star (BHA 180, RPR 185).

Master Minded was not that special in France and his British career at Exeter began inauspiciously when he unseated his rider at the third. Impressive next time off 145 in a handicap at Sandown, he did not put a foot wrong when slamming Voy Por Ustedes on favourable terms in the Game Spirit but even his performance there could not have prepared many for the remarkable display he put on here. Always going easily in a race in which Schindlers Hunt and Tamarinbleu forced a strong pace, he jumped into anarrow lead at the fifth-last and had only the runner-up to worry about from the next. Coming down the hill Ruby Walsh still had his hands full while æChoc' Thornton was rowing away on Voy Por Ustedes, and it was all over long before Walsh shook him up and sent him clear. Remarkably, the margin between the first two was growing all the way to the line, even though Walsh was pulling down his goggles and patting Master Minded down the neck while Thornton never stopped riding. Unless injury intervenes it will take something very special indeed to beat him in this race for the foreseeable future, and it is no surprise that some of the big firms are offering only even money, although William Hill went 6-4 and a couple of Irish bookmakers initially advertised 9-4.
 
People are downgrading MM's best achievements because he wasn't able to replicate them more than a couple of times.

But they were outstanding in their own right. And as Dessie says, the CC win was rock solid on the book.

Moscow Flyer was probably the best 2m chaser I have ever seen. But I have no doubt that he would have been beaten by Master Minded that day. The thing with Moscow Flyer was that he was capable of 4-5 top performances per year for 3 or 4 years.
 
You can put Hawk Wing's Lockinge in the same category as Master Minded. A horse can look very very good on one day but on no other day. It can be a combination of all sorts of things that just leads to a freakily good performance. Let SS do it again and again and we can call him one of the greatest.....like Frankel, Kauto, Moscow etc etc. I think we've been lucky recently that the likes of Frankel, STS and Kauto actually did it again and again so it wasn't just one performance. I think it has re-affirmed the position that to be considered a proper top notch horse, you need to deliver over and over again, like Sizing Europe. To achieve greatness then you need to be the best of that lot.
 
As an aside, I read yesterday morning a list of the top 2m chasers since 1988.

I get really irritated that handicappers hand 160+ ratings around like snuff at a wake these days. Direct Route was rated a maximum of 165, and he was a serious tool over 2m-2m4f. Now you see horses like Newmill rated 174, Forpadytheplasterer 168 (I think). It is ludicrous.

Anyway, what struck my eye about the list is how the hell Flagship Uberalles is not on it? He was a better horse than Big Zeb and Finian's Rainbow in my opinion, and robably better than Sizing Europe.

Top 2m Chasers by RPR since 1988:
186 Master Minded
182 Moscow Flyer
181 Desert Orchid
180 Sprinter Sacre
179 Azertyuiop, Kauto Star, Well Chief
176 Sizing Europe
175 Big Zeb, Finian's Rainbow

Listen, I think Sprinter Sacre has every chance of sending in a 185+ RPR performance. But beating Kumbeshwar by 15L or whatever doesn't do it for me.
 
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Really don't think VPU was better than a 165 chaser. He only won his Arkle because he got weight from Monet's Garden (who didn't even like Cheltenham) and his Queen Mother was nearly as bad as the one Newmill won.
 
Listen, I think Sprinter Sacre has every chance of sending in a 185+ RPR performance. But beating Kumbeshwar by 15L or whatever doesn't do it for me.

Kumbeshwar was ridden to get second. At no stage was he ever put in the race to win it, and SS did it Montjeu like on the bridle.
 
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