Totesport Bowl -Aintree

harry said:
Well very sorry to buck the trend but AP killed the horse in my opinion.
I watched after taping it late last night and was thinking "bloody hell Tony stop!!".
I admire AP and had no financial interest at all at Aintree but when they said he had died I wasn't surprised at all.
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That must be the most nonsensical posting in the history of this board .
 
I cannot see where anyone is coming from with this 'Denman didn't want to be there' nonsense. Let me tell you now; if half a ton of horse - nevermind this horse who undoubtedly is bigger even than that - doesn't want to do something, it doesn't do it. Period. Full stop. End of story. You think 10st of jockey is going to make an immensely strong horse do what they want them to do and nothing else? Think again. So there is an obvious flaw immediately in all the 'he didn't want to be there' arguments.

Now, onto the rest of it, concerning the horse looking bad and running badly, yada yada. Denman looked very well, and was striding around the paddock quite happy with himself. He may not have travelled like the bull that he can travel like, but that in itself does not indicate that he was tired/not wanting to be there/still affected by infamous and dubious 'problems' [delete as applicable] at all. It was not a tired fall Denman took, it was a simple mistake at a fence at which many other horses make the same mistake; the fence itself presents somewhat of a false groundline/optical illusion for the horses so some take off at the wrong time. I am quite sure that had Denman stood up he would have won the race; he was responding all the time, and responding well, to his urgings from the saddle, and was in my opinion going to get the better of Madison De Berlais. (and no, before anyone asks, I didn't back the horse)
 
Shadow Leader said:
I cannot see where anyone is coming from with this 'Denman didn't want to be there' nonsense. Let me tell you now; if half a ton of horse - nevermind this horse who undoubtedly is bigger even than that - doesn't want to do something, it doesn't do it. Period. Full stop. End of story. You think 10st of jockey is going to make an immensely strong horse do what they want them to do and nothing else? Think again. So there is an obvious flaw immediately in all the 'he didn't want to be there' arguments.

Now, onto the rest of it, concerning the horse looking bad and running badly, yada yada. Denman looked very well, and was striding around the paddock quite happy with himself. He may not have travelled like the bull that he can travel like, but that in itself does not indicate that he was tired/not wanting to be there/still affected by infamous and dubious 'problems' [delete as applicable] at all. It was not a tired fall Denman took, it was a simple mistake at a fence at which many other horses make the same mistake; the fence itself presents somewhat of a false groundline/optical illusion for the horses so some take off at the wrong time. I am quite sure that had Denman stood up he would have won the race; he was responding all the time, and responding well, to his urgings from the saddle, and was in my opinion going to get the better of Madison De Berlais. (and no, before anyone asks, I didn't back the horse)
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Interesting that Kauto, Master Minded, Schindlers Hunt etc never actually looked like falling after making similar mistakes that Denman did. I think it suggests the horse had no that much left to give....much like the eventual winner so he still could have won I guess. Either way I think most of Denman's expected him to win easier anyway which is something he would have struggled to do even if he stood up.
 
I can't see how anyone could say that - Denman had the upper hand going into the fence and was still responding well to Thomas' urgings. I really can't see how his fall can be taken as proof he was tired compared to others making the same mistake and not falling; it's all a case of angles and how and where you hit the fence allayed with the forces of motion and gravity and all that - he was coming in at such an angle that he had no chance, that is all.
 
Even if he had stood up and won he`d have been running half a stone or more below his Cheltenham form. On a tight track like Liverpool Denman is only gonna be fully effective if it`s proper soft ground.
 
It is utterly irrelevant how far from his Cheltenham form Denman was running - different race. I'm sure nobody's interested in dragging up Madison Du Berlais' Cheltenham form; that would have him tailed!
 
Shadow Leader said:
It is utterly irrelevant how far from his Cheltenham form Denman was running - different race. I'm sure nobody's interested in dragging up Madison Du Berlais' Cheltenham form; that would have him tailed!
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Not relevent to what exactly? I think Euro was just bringing up a point about the horse generally running below form compared to his Cheltenham effort.
 
uncle goober said:
I thought Denman would have just about managed to win, and such a performance would have been fair enough against a hugely improved Madison Du Berlais and a largely consistent Exotic Dancer.

Regarding the fall at the second last I do not believe it to have been a tired one.

Many horses are making the same blunder at this fence since it was resited and rebuilt two seasons ago. The board infront of the ditch is very high, the ditch is wide and the fence staring. For some reason a number of horses are fooled into taking off too far back from the fence and coming down into the fence, which is what Denman did. He jumped so high that he toppled over, some of the horses that are similarly fooled crash through and paddle the fence mid-jump having changed their minds, which helps them remain upright, the fence itself is actually quite soft.

Something odd is fooling the horses at this jump and I think it is to do with the take off board.

Furthermore, standing at the fence with a someone else who rides horses we were in a agreement that we would far rather attempt to jump the adjacent last-fence-in-the-national than the open ditch on the mildmay course.
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Interesting point, UG. Tidal Bay, Kauto Star and Battlecry all made mistakes there last year. It was put down to a patch of false ground at that time, iirc.
 
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