Training Fees

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Bruce_Savage

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Hey guys,

I was wondering why are trainers fees so hard to find on the internet, would there be any sort of inside competition or general consensus as to why?

I would have thought for first time buyers or people looking to get in Horse Racing the most important cost to look for would be the training fees which will over the span of a couple years probably cost more than the horse itself?

Why isn't this information readily availble, there should be a website were people can assess trainers within their price range - it shouldn't have to be you either contact me or you don't find out policy.

I know Mark Johnston has his fees up.

Also, I wonder if you're a current owner could you lease your training fees out to prospective buyers? maybe a website where people can lease fees for certain trainers over certain periods?
 
well, we are owners ourself and can truely say that training fees are important, but not THE MOST important. location springs to mind first, whether I do like the guy who is taking my horse, too. his facilities determin the price of course, so how can I compare when one has state-of-the-art facilities and the other one hardly a covered trotting ring?

when you get a racehorse you know it´ll cost you, and yes, apart from your horse´s price being more than 500,000, the training fees will most certainly top its initital price. I do not know why trainers do not put prices on their websites, but think they prefer to discuss that face-to-face.

I strongly believe not many of mark johnston´s customers do check fee´s on the internet.

I do not understand your last sentence, sorry.
 
Part of the Culture, never reveal your hand. Why are stallions fees never what they're advertised ....same thing.
 
See, I'm thinking about running a Horse Racing Society at University in order to get a younger and diverse crowd into the sport.

I've got a few things lined up and quite an adventurous competition throughout England in the back of my mind. The one thing that I'd love to so is try and bring ownership into the society, I know that my customers are going to be strictly base line bread and butter budgets but I've played with the idea of purchasing a horse at the Sales - I've seen decent bloodlines go through the sales for under £2,000 and the advantage of being their in the future to pick one out could mean having a decent bargin on our hands, something that could hit the frame in claimers or handicaps! it can be done, I'm 100% sure of it.

The only downfall in terms of going down this route is training fees, I know there is no pricing structure that could accomdate £40+ a day including other cost even for 100+ group of members. Then I've looked at some of the Racing shares online, for £97 I wouldn't buy anything off there! and how would you share a 0.03 between 100 people - ok I understand this could meet our target of getting people into ownership but imagine trying to get tickets or badges for when the horse runs.

I know my customers are the future of this country and other countries elsewhere that's why introducing them into something they might not have ever thought about could pay dividends in 10-15 years time
 
There is no market for fillys at the moment. Breeders with fillys with decent bloodlines would be interested in you taking on a filly , pay it's training fees etc and when its' finished racing you send it back to the breeder.
 
NH Fees for a half decent trainer in the South are going to be upwards of 1600 per month. You would need to take extra money each month if you were running a syndicate to cover entry fees, vets bills, travel etc plus your own time in running it. I'd say you would need to invest at least 5k unless you have a real eye and NH is safer if you want a run for your money.

Some courses will only give you 8 owners badges per meet, some are more generous but you would be lucky to get more than 20.
 
On fees, the more expensive the trainer, the less likely they are to disclose it. I'm working on something at the moment and would hope to have training fees on a website after christmas...hopefully.

On your horse, lease a filly. You'll get a nicer horse than you will for spending 2k and you can just hand it back without worrying about what happens next. Go to the Breeders Association in the UK and see if they can help you out finding the right type.
 
Bruce, re the south: I'd direct you to Heart of the South Racing, an extremely well-managed club which has picked up some very good animals for its groups of owners. In fact, what I'd recommend you to do is to join it for a season to see how John and Caroline Penny run it, along with their married daughter Eloise. That would give you a good idea of how to manage one from the point of sourcing trainers, who usually pick up the horses for the group (although the Pennys are now breeding some themselves), advertising and promoting (they have a super walk-in trailer which they park at many racecourses), and administration of owners' lists, open days, etc.

A very rough guide for you would be a trainer like Sheena West, charging £32 per day per horse in 2010 (no doubt that's gone up a few quid this year and will go up again next), Alastair Lidderdale £35 per day same period, up to Dunlops various c. £100+ per day. Small trainers = smaller fees.

What doesn't change from yard to yard, though, is the outlay for racing plates and general farrier work on the feet, the vet, the transportation costs of the horse to and from the racecourse, the race entry fees, registration of silks with Weatherbys, gratuities to stable staff (you do need to figure in this sort of stuff), and an idea of what you're going to do with your horse when its racing days are over - which might be sooner in some cases than others! Most racing clubs keep their animals a couple of years and then put them into the sales, unless they turn into Group or Grade types, when they may well agree to keep them on longer. But you'd need to also inform your group of what would happen to their share (which, like shares in companies, can go down as well as up) in the event of a sale.

Badges: I recommend checking out the racecourses' websites under the OWNERS AND TRAINERS section and seeing what they offer. There isn't a set standard, although most offer up to six, some eight, free badges, race cards, and owners' facilities, with the potential to buy up to an amount at either a set price or half the entrance fee on the day. As an example, Brighton and Plumpton offer additional badges for a tenner each, Fontwell Park for £13 each. Once you have a horse entered at a course, you can ask their Accounts Dept. how many extras you can pay for - Heart of the South gets the standard amount free, and is then invoiced for the balance, for example. So, you might get six freebies and a further 20 @ £10 each - £200 invoice will be sent to you by the course, which you pay. However, some other big racing clubs ask their members to simply show up, pot luck as to who gets the freebies, and the rest, as they arrive, pay cash on sight of their membership card. How you decide to do it is up to you, but whatever is easiest and cheapest administratively speaking is probably best.

If you would like me to witter away a bit more, please feel free to PM me.
 
Just got an e-bulletin from the ROA re the costs of keeping a dual-code horse. Bruce, if you're interested, go to the Racehorse Owners Association site and see if they've put it up on there. If not, and you want a copy, I can email it to you.
 
You sure Dunlop charges that much Kri?

Heard about an Irish trainer doing "all in" so to speak for 1,100 Euro's though he's not that good (though they've been running a heck of a lot better of late) though as others have said you get what you pay for.

There'll be some good trainers in the cheaper end of the scale - Neil King, Jamie Snowden etc. I'd imagine don't charge the earth yet do a very good job with what they get.
 
Well, there are three Dunlops - John, Ed, and Harry, IS. I believe Songsheet may have mentioned it either on here, but certainly at some point to me vis-a-vis FAREER that Ed charged in the region of £140 a day. John would not be far adrift, given the type of clientele he prefers to maintain - apart from Goodwood Racehorse Owners' Group, he doesn't do cheap 'n' cheerful Class 6 syndicates. (And GROG membership is far from a cheap deal.) Even Brendan Duke was charging near enough that prior to his departure to Ireland!

TBH, I don't know how someone could do an 'all in' on a horse, since as we all know, there are so many variables. It wouldn't allow for specials such as diet supplements, therapies, vet's bills, etc., let alone differentials in transport to racecourses which could range from maybe 10 miles down the road to 100. You look at the distance Mark Johnston's travel, for example, such as the yard to Brighton, and that'd be one helluva box bill for the owner!

Mark Hoad is the cheapest I've heard of - his Mum said early on in the year he charged £28 per day. (At which point at least three forumites will be muttering "Who he?") I'm sure there are some people who are au courant with fees and could put up some further examples.
 
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If a trainer has a large equine establishment (mixed business) he can do it cheaper without cutting corners. Price doesn't necessarily mean quality either. As with many things in this game it's about opportunity and trainers may have relatively low prices in order to attract clientele. Do the research and you'll find out if cheap means crap or good value.
 
Irish Stamp said:
Heard about an Irish trainer doing "all in" so to speak for 1,100 Euro's though he's not that good (though they've been running a heck of a lot better of late) though as others have said you get what you pay for.
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That's not a storming deal. I know lads well able to train who are charging €25 a day plus extras. Would work out around a grand a month. As Sheikh said, cheap doesn't always mean compromising on quality. For example, if your stables are on family land and you live at home, you dont have to pay the bank or rent (potentially) each month so that means you can charge less than the lad down the road who has a mortgage on the stables and the house.
 
Good points - although some who do own their own land still charge a king's ransom, because they have the sort of clientele who would equate cheapness with poor quality.

Bruce, to find all the trainers you probably would ever need to find, you could just buy a copy of Horses in Training 2011, which lists 695 of them. Phone up Raceform Ltd on 01933 304858 to order a copy and one for next year and you will then be able to access all of their websites - where they have one. At least you'd have their contact numbers to call them up and discuss matters.

Some trainers aren't listed and if one you're interested in is not in the book, then you can contact the National Trainers' Federation (aka the NTF) through their own website and request his/her details. The NTF registers pretty much all regular trainers and PTAs (permit trainers) so will be able to help you further.
 
Sheikh: missed your paragraph about breeders taking their fillies back from leasing owners when they've finished racing. Would you take one back that'd managed 000-5604 in Class 6s under that scheme and seriously want to put her back into the gene pool? We've banged on enough about crappy overproduced animals and surely you'd only take her back if she'd knocked in a couple of wins - and even then, we know a lot of books would be closed to her.

It's true that some studs are desperately overfillied and would probably do BOGOFs on the quiet, but I don't know that any would just simply take those back that turned out, regardless of their lineage, to have been useless. Unless we really are still not giving a toss about the quality of production?
 
Sorry I haven't replied sooner!

Kirzon you have been outstanding in your approach to dealing with my question and I thank you for all the information and links provided aswell as other forumites.
 
krizon said:
Sheikh: missed your paragraph about breeders taking their fillies back from leasing owners when they've finished racing. Would you take one back that'd managed 000-5604 in Class 6s under that scheme and seriously want to put her back into the gene pool? We've banged on enough about crappy overproduced animals and surely you'd only take her back if she'd knocked in a couple of wins - and even then, we know a lot of books would be closed to her.

It's true that some studs are desperately overfillied and would probably do BOGOFs on the quiet, but I don't know that any would just simply take those back that turned out, regardless of their lineage, to have been useless. Unless we really are still not giving a toss about the quality of production?
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In a word 'No'

The filly would have to a winner at a reasonable level or a sibling has turned out well.
 
Cheers, Sheikh - I was hoping that would be the answer!

Bruce, no problem, my pleasure. I'm all for encouraging people to take an interest in racing and particularly ownership, so the more that can be done to bring folks in, the better.

There is a bit of admin stuff to get out the way, like registering yourself as the syndicate manager, perhaps finding sponsorship for your silks (colours) - notice how so many jockeys' britches and shirt collars have promotional tags on them - and so on.

If you find you do get a general interest from your target group and aren't sure of how to proceed, you'll find the ROA (Racehorse Owners' Association) tel. 020 71520 200 and Weatherbys (which does all the banking/payment of prize monies, registering of colours, etc.) 01933 440077 very helpful in walking you through the stages of set-up. And, of course, there's this forum!
 
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Piece of honest advice Bruce, don't waste your time with British Racing, you won't make money and it will cost you £2,000 a month to realise the game is run by clueless idiots who don't give a shit about Owners, or horses and are only interested in making a nice living themselves. Go to France it's far better and you can make it pay and it costs less. The collapse of British Racing won't be far off and I don't know why anyone new to the sport would even consider investing in our industry, it's the worse value for money in the world and not worth it.
 
You should calm down after yesterday's drama, Flame. Of course everyone in racing is trying to make a 'nice living' out of it - yourself included. Surely you wouldn't be buying up horses galore to install at Lidderdale's if you were failing miserably? If you've got an individual grudge against yesterday's stalls team and starter at Lingfield, that's a far cry from all British racing being hopeless.
 
I wonder how much cheaper (and more difficult) it would be to have a horse in training in France ... plus the expenses of going over every now & then.

It seems I've nowhere near the money to get involved this side of the Bay of Biscay.
 
Yes, anyone know how much Fabre or Rohaut charges, for example? And also whether there is any room at the inn for more? It's tough enough to get a British horse into a French race, and most of the trainers seem to want quality intake from overseas anyway, so I doubt very much that they'd be interested in even a Class 4 handicapper from the UK!

You'd honestly have to look at the training fees, see what the cost of all other peripherals such as transportation, race entry, jockey's fees, registration of your silks (about £48 in the UK), farrier, vet, etc. cost in France versus Britain or Ireland to make sure that ownership was really cheaper.

Just because race meetings cost a fiver to attend (because of the Tote monopoly) and the prize money's better, doesn't mean that your horse's keep costs are cheaper. France is an expensive country and I don't see why the running cost of a horse would be cheaper than here. You would have to factor in how many times you might realistically travel to see it run, too. Most of the pleasure of having an HIT in the UK is to visit the stables from time to time (one reason for choosing a trainer is his proximity to your home), not just being able to swank that you own one. If you're going to regularly Eurostar your way over, there are small but sharp add-ons such as taxis, and possibly an overnight stay. If those wouldn't cost you much more than your petrol costs to drive to your UK course, then perhaps it's worth it, but I suspect that distance would not make the heart grow fonder. Most of us like to see our horses in the flesh as often as possible, not just once or twice a year.
 
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Local Celebrity runs in a maiden hurdle at Cork today in the colours of "TCD Racing Society Club". Presumably the TCD stands for Trinity College Dublin, and it would appear they have leased the horse, because it had been running until now in the colours of the trainer's wife.
 
I wonder how they financed the lease? looks a very decent horse for a syndicate with a enormous trainer.
 
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