Victor Chandler Chase

Yeah, and we have the Queen Mother and the Tingle Creek for that.

thats a bit like turning the King George on the flat into a handicap because we have the Derby, Oaks & Arc for that

handicaps are for average horses..we should be encouraging more owners to take part in better races..not increasing the number of handicaps..of which we have too many now..and which encourage "cheating" which people seem to dislike

on one hand people don't like cheating..but then want more handicaps?

puzzling
 
thats a bit like turning the King George on the flat into a handicap because we have the Derby, Oaks & Arc for that

No it isn't. The King George has a heritage and a rich roll of honour. The VC used to be a handicap anyway.

I would love to see the odd big race on the flat turned into richly endowed handicaps. Races like the Hungerford or the Mile race at Sandown that Dick Turpin won.
 
Some great handicaps in the USA.
Look at the Melbourne Cup, the only "Race that stops a Nation"
Aintree Grand National as a level weight race would not work.
There is a place for Heritage handicaps, even limited to a 14 lb weight range under both codes.
Remember in the old days The Lincoln, Stewards Cup, Cambridgeshire were amongst the most sought after prizes for the best of horses.
If the Lincoln were worth a million there would be very few going to Meyden.
 
on one hand people don't like cheating..but then want more handicaps?

puzzling

Horses like Somersby and Rubi Light would hardly be what you could describe as plot horses. The race would be far more interesting if SS was giving weight to both of these.

Handicaps do serve a purpose too
 
thats a bit like turning the King George on the flat into a handicap because we have the Derby, Oaks & Arc for that

handicaps are for average horses..we should be encouraging more owners to take part in better races..not increasing the number of handicaps..of which we have too many now..and which encourage "cheating" which people seem to dislike

on one hand people don't like cheating..but then want more handicaps?

puzzling

People in general haven't a clue. This race was changed for commercial reasons and in my opinion wrongly so. It's turned a fascinating handicap into a **** boat race every year. We've been robbed of seeing Master Minded and now Sprinter Sacre giving weight away.


.
 
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I'm not saying EC1's point is wrong but I am saying that I loved the race as a handicap.
 
I prefer conditions races, as the best horse wins, but there is room for both types of race surely. The point is that the VC used to be a handicap, and was really the only chance we would have of seeing top two-milers giving weight away. The three-milers have this in the Hennessy - I'm sure there would be an outcry if that was turned into a conditions race.

Furthermore, at any one time there seem to be fewer top two-milers in general, and as such the division lends itself to a superior horse dominating, as is the case today. Can any true racing fan say they wouldn't be fascinated by SS giving two stone to his rivals?
 
Azertyuiop giving lumps aways was a joy to behold. It staggers me they scrapped it.
 
No denying that, but people don't have a clue?'''''''that's rich coming from you sunshine

What your logical mind failed to pick up on is had it been left as a handicap it would no longer have been called the Victor Chandler Chase.

When it was last run as a handicap VC had all but pulled the plug on the race and it had been downgraded to a grade 3 handicap and the value to the winner had more than halved..

Horses like Twist Magic, Master Minded and wouldn't have run in the race so you would have been robbed of nothing.

No way on this planet would Sprinter Sacre be going to Ascot if it was still a Grade 3 handicap not for a lousy 20k to the winner because that's where the race was when last run as a handicap.

When they agreed to upgrade it to a proper Group 1 (not a handicap) to ensure the best horses ran in it then VC agreed to up the sponsorship again and the racegoers have been treated to some really good racing.

Tamarinbleu turned over hot fav Twist magic in the first running with a great display of front running............ Master Minded put up what many thought to be the best performance of his life the following year, Then the race was somewhat spoiled when Petite Robin's departure robbed us of what would have been a right old battle had he not fallen when cantering.

Master Minded held on by the skin of his teeth when Somersby came rattling home to go down by a head and then last season saw Al Ferof take on Finians Rainbow and Somersby in a fascinating contest.

Hardly ****boat races were they?

Those same people who haven't got a clue will be at Ascot on Saturday in their droves, should it survive and wouldn't miss seeing Sprinter Sacre for the world something you logic would most likely rob them of.
 
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I happen to agree with with Slim's fundamental premise that people in general don't have a clue. That's how we end up with f&cking coalitions run by twats. At the same time, Tanlic's observation regarding the way the race was going is well made, but that speaks more for the bookmakers' stranglehold on racing than the principle of of offering quality racing.

Let's say I was fortunate enough to win £100m+ in the Euromillions. Let's say I offered £200k in sponsorship for the next ten years to the race currently known as the VC. Does anyone really believe we'd end up with chasers in the 135-150 band going after the pot? No way. You'd have every top 2-miler in Europe being aimed at it.

Then let's say I made it a handicap for horses rated 150+ with 10-0 the weight for horses rated 150 but lowering the weights if those horses came out (in other words, if the bottom rated final dec was rated 155 it would carry 10-0 and the top weight would come down 5lbs). It would be regarded as the top 2m race of the calendar regardles of who or what ran in the QM because regardless of who won, it would allow us to make a meaningful comparison of the merits of the principals.

UK racing needs its valuable handicaps. It needs its equivalents of the Melbourne Cup or the big handicaps in the US.

What it doesn't need is bookmakers.
 
I happen to agree with with Slim's fundamental premise that people in general don't have a clue. That's how we end up with f&cking coalitions run by twats. At the same time, Tanlic's observation regarding the way the race was going is well made, but that speaks more for the bookmakers' stranglehold on racing than the principle of of offering quality racing.

Let's say I was fortunate enough to win £100m+ in the Euromillions. Let's say I offered £200k in sponsorship for the next ten years to the race currently known as the VC. Does anyone really believe we'd end up with chasers in the 135-150 band going after the pot? No way. You'd have every top 2-miler in Europe being aimed at it.

Then let's say I made it a handicap for horses rated 150+ with 10-0 the weight for horses rated 150 but lowering the weights if those horses came out (in other words, if the bottom rated final dec was rated 155 it would carry 10-0 and the top weight would come down 5lbs). It would be regarded as the top 2m race of the calendar regardles of who or what ran in the QM because regardless of who won, it would allow us to make a meaningful comparison of the merits of the principals.

UK racing needs its valuable handicaps. It needs its equivalents of the Melbourne Cup or the big handicaps in the US.

What it doesn't need is bookmakers.


Excellent post and I concede the essay writer made some fair points.
 
The only thing I can see wrong with your idea Dessie is you would be doing yourself a disservice as a sponsor.

The Champion Hurdle at Cheltenham could be had for about 200K which would give you 10 times the exposure. After all that is the main reason a sponsor sponsors.

It also begs the question would a sponsor be allowed to upgrade a current Group 1 to an amount exceeding the the QMCC which I believe is the richest 2 mile chase in the country?

I doubt it as Sportingbet.com or whoever will have part of their conditions that they can't take number 1 status away from the race for as long as they are contracted to sponsor it.

Let's not forget we are talking National hunt racing here and we do have handicaps in the shape of races like the Hennessy and the now named Betfair Hurdle which are huge crowd pullers but they are still not the Champion Hurdle eg and never will be.

We certainly do not need a Melbourne Cup. For one we don't have $4 million to toss around.

The race is a fantastic spectacle but its an Aussie thing and despite the prize money involved it lacks appeal on the international market.

For years the Aussies have struggled to get it international status and attract the best horses in the world and have failed miserably.

It stuck between the Arc and the Breeders run over too far for Europe's best and it's handicap. The racing world need another one of those jammed into the racing calendar like it needs a hole in the head.

The major problems all countries have when introducing new races is fitting them in and attracting the best. Meydan offer huge money but you don't get Frankel shooting across to pick up a couple of Million because it's not about prize money it's about shed value and winning the Champion Stakes The Derby or the Arc etc is where the real money is made.
 
Why if Azertyuiop did? I'm assuming it might have something to do with Clive Smith being a choke job.
That was before yer man pulled the plug the race was worth more than 3 times as much about 70k I believe to the winner.

VC simply wanted the race to be a Grade 1 to get full value for his money and most likely because a good horse like Azertyuiop winning draws more attention than some moderate handicapper carrying 10 stone does.
 
Azertyuiop giving lumps aways was a joy to behold. It staggers me they scrapped it.

Well Chief winning the race when carrying top weight in 2005 was great too. His handicap mark that day was 176, 2lb higher than the rating Denman ran off when he won his second Hennessy.

I agree the race hasn't been anywhere near as exciting since they changed it.
 
The only thing I can see wrong with your idea Dessie is you would be doing yourself a disservice as a sponsor.
I've just won the Euromillions; I am not a business. Sponsorship is maybe a misnomer on my part. Just call me a benefactor who wants to see the best 2-milers take each other on and I've got the wads to put up a pot to attract them.

Let's not forget we are talking National hunt racing here and we do have handicaps in the shape of races like the Hennessy and the now named Betfair Hurdle which are huge crowd pullers but they are still not the Champion Hurdle eg and never will be.
Those are handicaps for handicappers. They may contain horses that ultimately go on to win championship races but their main raison d'etre is to give a large number of of connections a fair chance of picking up a very large prize.

We certainly do not need a Melbourne Cup. For one we don't have $4 million to toss around.

The race is a fantastic spectacle but its an Aussie thing and despite the prize money involved it lacks appeal on the international market.

For years the Aussies have struggled to get it international status and attract the best horses in the world and have failed miserably.
You make the point yourself. The Melbourne Cup is an Aussie thing. A very big Aussie thing. The Dessie Cup could be a very big UK thing. We don't have $4m to toss around because the bookies syphon so much off. But I've won the Euromillions and I do have £4m to toss around.

The major problems all countries have when introducing new races is fitting them in and attracting the best. Meydan offer huge money but you don't get Frankel shooting across to pick up a couple of Million because it's not about prize money it's about shed value and winning the Champion Stakes The Derby or the Arc etc is where the real money is made.
That's Flat racing and there's the breeding industry to satisfy. I don't have that problem.
 
I wish it were still a handicap too but can see why it isn't .Excitement wise it has become a bit like turning the Ebor into the Lonsdale Cup .
 
Conditions races and top-end handicaps with no upper rating limit both have their place on the calendar, as they represent different kinds of tests. Both provide a framework to establish the best horse on the day, however only the latter attempts to 'equalise' the chances of the participants beforehand. The attraction of seeing top horses run in big-field handicaps, is precisely because the race has been framed to make life notionally more difficult for them. And because multiple measures can be taken, such races usually provide a decent bedrock from which to assess performance.....which isn't always the case in conditions races, which can often be poorly contested (in terms of numbers, at least).

Both types of races can, and should, co-exist comfortably on the calendar, but the programme is heavily loaded in favour of Conditions events, at the expense of valuable handicap opportunites.

Perhaps there's a bit of chicken-and-egg at play too. If top trainers won't run top horses in handicaps, then you have to make the races for them somehow. But if you don't put those races on at all, then they have to run their horses somewhere.

The truth probably lies somewhere in between, but for my money, I think it's a shame that more top-horses don't run in the better handicaps. In the case of the Chandler (and I aknowledge the sponsor himself engineered the change) it was an unnecessary step too far. The Tingle Creek and Game Spirit provide ample pre-Festival opportunities to see the top 2m chasers take each othere on at levels, and heaving a third identical event into the mix, at the espense of what was always a tremendous race, has had a de-facto detrimental affect on the 2m chase pattern.

The Chandler is now just another top-end 2m chase - accurately described as a poor-man's Tingle Creek earlier in the thread - and holds nothing like the fascination that it did years ago.
 
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I wonder also if DO' Euromillions were also put towards making the Cesarewitch as valuable as the Grand National whether we would see anywhere near so many European horses going for the Melbourne Cup ?
 
Desert Orchid also won the race in one of the most thrilling NH races I have ever seen from Panto Prince when it was a handicap
 
Well Chief winning the race when carrying top weight in 2005 was great too. His handicap mark that day was 176, 2lb higher than the rating Denman ran off when he won his second Hennessy.

I agree the race hasn't been anywhere near as exciting since they changed it.

Indeed.
 
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