ZENYATTA - 15 not out!

STS stayed on his continent?! I am sure an entry for Zenyatta would have been accepted for races at Sandown, York, Leopardstown, Longchamp. Why is it that the European horses have to go to the US? The best race meet in October is in Paris, not across the pond.

I also strongly disagree her owners have not ducked a challenge - they haven't even left their own country, and keep running in races where she can't get beat!

Second Euro's points about Twice Over and Rip.

Also agree with the point about Lord Derby - Ouija Board will be remembered a lot more fondly by me - never ducked a challenge, and I'm sure they could have sent her to the paddocks with a vastly improved race record if they had stuck to the type of races Zenyatta runs in - instead they took in races in 6 different countries - how do we know how Zenyatta will react when asked to travel overseas? We don't.
 
Mickey the Marcher said:
it is such a huge pity that Shirreffs and the Mosses are so totally conservative in their choice of races. As one of the top ranked horses in the world, and almost certainly the top ranked American main track horse, there is no reason she shouldn't be racing against the top males every time she steps on the track.
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Absolutely spot on.
 
Just had a closer look at her race record - am I right in saying she has only taken on colts once?!!

A real superstar.
 
Hamm said:
STS stayed on his continent?! I am sure an entry for Zenyatta would have been accepted for races at Sandown, York, Leopardstown, Longchamp. Why is it that the European horses have to go to the US? The best race meet in October is in Paris, not across the pond.
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We in Europe think the Arc meeting is the best race meeting but the Americans will think the Breeders Cup is the best race meeting so you have to look at it from their perspective too.

Completely agree with Kri about the surface comment, you race on what suits the horse and in her case, it's synthetics. They're having another crack on dirt in the BC Classic this year against the colts and that's what her whole campaign is geared towards.

Can't understand the negativity myself, she's a star in her own country for winning 18 consecutive races at the top level, including once the jewel in American racing (aside from the Kentucky Derby). She's no less or no more of a star than say Zarkava who only raced against the opposite sex once and never left France and I'm a huge huge fan of hers as I've argued in other threads.

Agree about Ouija Board though, fantastic mare who was campaigned magnificently.
 
Gamla Stan said:
We in Europe think the Arc meeting is the best race meeting but the Americans will think the Breeders Cup is the best race meeting so you have to look at it from their perspective too.

Can't understand the negativity myself, she's a star in her own country for winning 18 consecutive races at the top level, including once the jewel in American racing (aside from the Kentucky Derby). She's no less or no more of a star than say Zarkava who only raced against the opposite sex once and never left France and I'm a huge huge fan of hers as I've argued in other threads.
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Yes, but many, many European horses who race in the Arc also go to the Breeders Cup - how many American horses do the same?

I'm not as big a fan of Zarkava as some; fantastic horse but hasn't achieved anything like what Goldikova has.

The negativity centres around the fact that, Breeders Cup aside, she is raced completely in her comfort zone, won't race outside the states nor against colts.
 
Hamm said:
Yes, but many, many European horses who race in the Arc also go to the Breeders Cup - how many American horses do the same?
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Completely agree with this but as you said earlier, it's a reflection of the insular nature of American sports. It's not a slight on the mare herself, I'd love to have seen her in the PoW or the Eclipse. She can only win what she's put in and she has done with extreme ease on eighteen occasions, including once against the colts.
 
Hamm said:
Ouija Board will be remembered a lot more fondly by me -
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I'm sure ZENYATTA will be devastated..:p

Hamm said:
Just had a closer look at her race record - am I right in saying she has only taken on colts once?!!

A real superstar.
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Well, it's all just a matter of opinion, Hamm - a fair numer of folk think she is a star but no point in getting worked up about it!
 
:D

Not getting worked up (what makes you think that?) but will debate she is far from a superstar all day long.
 
Gamla Stan said:
She can only win what she's put in and she has done with extreme ease on eighteen occasions, including once against the colts.
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Exactly - hence why I think she is far from a superstar until she is put in more difficult races and beats the colts more than the once.
 
She'll go down in American racing history as a superstar like Zarkava will go down as a superstar in French racing history. It's all relevant at the end of the day.

I can see arguments against both mares given that status but they both have been unbeaten and have been visually supremely impressive.
 
I was never a believer but I thought her win in the Breeders Cup was very pleasing on the eye.
What would you want if you owned a top class filly or mare to run up an unbeaten sequence or to acheive the highest possible rating.
 
Indeed it was. Never mentioned ratings Luke - she is clearly worth a fortune when she retires so I would want her to run in the best races, and in different countries. An unbeaten record if you are avoiding the better races means little.
 
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There'll likely be a few more if it suited their horses - if the Arc was a 10f turf race going left-handed you'd get more runners.

The new race being talked about at Ascot by RFC (whatever they want to do with the Champion Stakes and moving it to October) would be more likely to garner interest from the US than the Arc.

This years Arc takes place as always on the first weekend of October - the same weekend as the following US Grade 1 Breeders Cup preps:

10f Turf Flower Bowl Invitational (Fillies and Mares, Belmont Park) - $600,000
10f Dirt Jockey Club Gold Cup (Open, Belmont Park) - $1m
12f Turf Joe Hirsch Turf Classic Invitational (Open, Belmont Park) - $600,000
6f Dirt Vosburgh Stakes (Open, Belmont Park) - $400,000
8.5f Dirt Beldame Stakes (Fillies and Mares, Belmont Park) - $350,000
Would be good to see if the Irish Champion could try and attract some US raiders, a relatively flat left-handed oval (similar to Woodbine) would be far more attractive than the Arc and would fall at the right time of year since there's only one G1 open turf 10-12f race in September in North America (the Northern Dancer at Woodbine which is the first G1 in the division since August's Arlington Million).

It's easier for European trainers to justify shipping to the US to run against supposedly weaker horses for £400,000 or £500,000 than it is for US trainers to do the opposite ie. run against stronger opposition for less money or more money at at time when Breeders Cup preps are vital.

The US trainers have shown in recent years with their jaunts to Dubai, Hong Kong, Japan etc. that they aren't afraid of shipping if the terms are right and at the right time of year.
 
Irish Stamp said:
There'll likely be a few more if it suited their horses - if the Arc was a 10f turf race going left-handed you'd get more runners.
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What's wrong with the Irish Champion Stakes? Probably the best 10 furlong race in Europe.
 
Nothing wrong with it but I'd be sceptical if many US trainers even know when it's run - it seems to be Ascot or the Arc which speaks volumes for the amount of work that Ascot has put into trying to attract foreign horses.

Would love to see Gio Ponti et al run in it (I think the result is inevitable but would be great to see).
 
Irish Stamp said:
Nothing wrong with it but I'd be sceptical if many US trainers even know when it's run - it seems to be Ascot or the Arc which speaks volumes for the amount of work that Ascot has put into trying to attract foreign horses.

Would love to see Gio Ponti et al run in it (I think the result is inevitable but would be great to see).
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Exactly - sums up America - nothing exists outside their backyard! :p
 
Very true - well most of America. I know of people who'd think there's nothing better than shipping to Ascot for the King George or Leopardstown for the Irish Champion - sadly they neither own top class racehorse nor train them lol
 
Interesting that Timeform had Zenyatta on 131 prior to her last run I believe (with her last run unlikely to produce a particularly spectacular rating I wouldn't have thought), with Quality Road the top-rated horse in the States.

What sort of Beyers has she been putting up does anyone know?
 
Thing is, no matter what she does or doesn't win from now on in, her value and that of her progeny (should she have any), won't change much, other than according to the sire used. So there's no real incentive to risk her overseas, I suppose (they may know something about how she might travel they haven't shared with Joe Public).

Yes, it would be great to see her race outside the States but where would she go ? they won't expose her on any surface other than the one she's proved herself on, so that limits where she could go, no ?
 
What's with this 'superstar' stuff, anyway? It's all fake nonsense - there are horses, just like humans, which excel over all others in certain conditions. As soon as a horse is doing fabulously on turf, someone wants him to prove himself in the dirt, and vice versa. "Horses for courses" as a wise maxim seems to desert them.

Can't some of you just ENJOY what horses do, without forever oh-so-boringly trying to diminish and demean every effort? Sometimes life isn't all about timings, ratings, theories and spreadsheets. It's about enjoyment - a seemingly forgotten or never-grasped concept for some people. Do you apply the same caveats to your sexual pleasures? Once the gasping's all over, do you check your stopwatch and see if your sectionals (or sextionals) have improved over last month's? Rush to your laptop and enter up your Best Delay to Orgasm and see how it compares with 2009's? I'm beginning to think that some of you probably do, since everything seems reduced to stats. For Christ's sake, just enjoy what's in front of you!
 
krizon said:
Can't some of you just ENJOY what horses do, without forever oh-so-boringly trying to diminish and demean every effort? Sometimes life isn't all about timings, ratings, theories and spreadsheets. It's about enjoyment - a seemingly forgotten or never-grasped concept for some people. Do you apply the same caveats to your sexual pleasures? Once the gasping's all over, do you check your stopwatch and see if your sectionals (or sextionals) have improved over last month's? Rush to your laptop and enter up your Best Delay to Orgasm and see how it compares with 2009's? I'm beginning to think that some of you probably do, since everything seems reduced to stats. For Christ's sake, just enjoy what's in front of you!
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Of course it's not all about stats, Krizon. I, however, have proven myself effective on a number of different surfaces in a number of different countries. Zenyatta has not.
 
I'm adding to the debate, Hamm - not that you'd notice, of course, since subtlety is hardly your strongest suit. Carping/dissing/trying to bully people are your best, although whether you've been tried over different forums, I don't know. I've only seen you on this and, frankly, you're a bit of a one-trick pony.

Tracks - didn't you find you slowed down a bit on sand, though?
 
Eh, no you are not adding to it. You are basically knocking some of the things other people enjoy discussing. If you don't enjoy that, fine, then don't do it, but don't tell other people how to enjoy racing - each to their own.

As for the rest, blah.
 
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