2007 Departures - Horses In Training

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Oh, SHITBAGS!! Here was a very nice horse with every chance to go on - I was admiring the photos in the Photo Section of him only a day ago, and now he's dead? WTF happened?
 
I think that with the exception of when he was involved in that horrid fight for the title with Martin Pipe, Nicholls is hardly known as a cruel trainer.
 
Originally posted by Love Everlasting@Jun 10 2007, 06:36 PM
Georgie broke down a lot of horses so i don't think "the poor creatures early history" was the sole reason for him breaking down
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When I first saw TG he had plaster boots on his forelegs, quite literally. Georgie talked to me quite a bit about the horse and I followed his progress for around two years in the yard.

I was a pretty regular visitor there at the time, as I stayed a lot at Luke's pub; and I also had an 'interest' in two in the yard for the best part of a year when I belonged to a racing club which had two hurdlers there. I never got any sense that horses were regularly being broken down - or at all, come to that. Quite the contrary, from what I could see they were given plenty of time if they had niggly problems [which a high percentage of jumpers do as we all know] or even went out of form; and I don't recall any other horse in the yard having comparable problems to TG's. Nor do I remember Georgie losing any; whe was always insistent about using top jockeys [esp for younger horses] and that hers shoudl be ridden up with the pace to avoid pile-ups.

My connection with the yard was of course superficial. Maybe you worked there. I really don't want to get into a slanging match over this. I liked the horse a lot - he was as you say quality - and was bemused anyone would put him into training as a juvenile as he was such a very big scopey sort, made for jumping. I didn't even know where he'd been before.
 
I have to side with Dim, and it is no attack to Paul Nicholls - no need to run a horse so soon, of course she (and I) was stating her opinion, and it is horrible sad, and I would question just the same, tbh.
 
Agreed, it was one of those tired falls at the end of a race which are more likely to happen if the horse has had a hard race very recently. A great shame for a horse just reaching his prime. And I too wouldn't normally criticse PN, a trainer I admire greatly; but if it had been my horse he wouldn't have run again that soon
 
But he wasn't your horse and the owners clearly thought he would be fine. I give up sometimes. The trainer thought he was fine. The owner thought he was fine, the jockey riding him thought he was fine ( or would surely have puleld him up) so let's just accept that it happens sometimes instead of insinuating that people are wasting horses.
 
It's amazing how many "Grandstand trainers" we have on here as well as "Grandstand jockeys". I wonder if those who are slating Nicholls [and so many other trainers who get slated after their horses have died] knew all the ins and outs of the case and knew exactly how "tired" or otherwise the horse was? Would such a fuss have been made if the unfortunate creature hadn't fallen and killed himself?
 
Dom, we also have one or two brilliant grandstand breeders, don't forget, who by now would've bred the winner of every Classic going, so simple is the formula! I don't have a problem with grandstanders, provided I think they know what they're talking about, and that their criticisms aren't solely predicated on monetary return or loss. No, is the answer - of course people wouldn't criticise the horse's run if he'd finished and looked as if he was fit enough to complete. Even if he'd been PU or tailed off, criticism could well have been made. We don't tend to criticise the survival of competing horses! It is quite clearly BECAUSE the horse died - and a very talented horse, just look over his form - after exerting himself in hot weather only three days previously that we are ALL entitled to look at the wisdom to run him again.

The forum's comprised of varying levels of knowledge on a number of subjects: just because someone is not a trainer doesn't exclude them from participating in discussions about trainer's decisions, any more than your lack of ownership of a caravan... :P
 
I know Jon, it just gets a bit much when seemingly every time a horse dies someone somewhere has to criticise the trainer and lay the blame at their doorstep. No trainer wants to lose their horses so I feel that quite a lot of the criticisms are unfair. The decision to run a horse doesn't tend to be a snap one but reading some comments on here you would think that no thought whatsoever had been put into a lot of the running plans.
 
It's not always the trainers decision. I have been present when owners just tell a trainer where their horse was going to run. One trainer had an owner who insisted the horse ran two days running - just because I think he fancied a day out at a posh track. :what:
 
SL and PDJ I am not slating the trainer. I wouldn't dream of that. The yard has been extremely good to me for my work and I have got to know most of the Ditcheat horses and the connections on a more ' personal ' scale than most on here.
I don't think I fit in to grandstand trainer category either ...thank you.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Jun 11 2007, 01:24 PM
I know Jon, it just gets a bit much when seemingly every time a horse dies someone somewhere has to criticise the trainer and lay the blame at their doorstep.
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I also think that this comment is abit OTT. ' Everytime ' is a huge exaggeration.

Sometimes would fit in better don't you think?
 
I haven't had any reason to look over Nicholls's past running schedules, to see whether he's run plenty of his charges within 72 hours of a race, or to see whether these have resulted in disaster or triumph. We do see quite a few Flat horses out very quickly, often with really good results on the second outing, but rarely so good on a third, so it may be a ploy which works to a certain point.

I think one has to take into account how the horse returns to the paddock (maybe ARMARIVER came back little out of puff and relatively fresh), how he weighed (we know PN weighs daily, according to him), how he ate up and his general attitude on the day of the race. Weather must play an important part in a decision to re-run quickly, surely, since some horses sweat most profusely and would lose vast amounts of tissue salts, while others might not. But I'm sure that good trainers rehydrate their horses post-race with electrolytes and this shouldn't have been too much of a factor.

There's a lot to consider before making a judgment to re-run quickly, but I'm sure however much the scales appeared weighted in a quick re-run's favour, PN wishes dearly he hadn't. If the horse's owner requested the re-run, he at least knows he bears very little responsibility for its outcome, very sad in this case, but equally possible that it could have been a nice placing. I'm sure he has enough clout to tell his owners 'no' very strongly if he feels there's no good reason to re-run. I'm just pretty cut up for the horse himself. Lovely type (but then, I do adore ARMATURK!), with so much more time ahead of him, based on a darn good record.
 
I loved Armariver too, as crazy about Armaturk and they were similar types.

I'm not going to get into the debate about the trainer as a big fan and I pretty much trust that he cares about the horses he has. Who knows maybe the jockey was supposed to be light on horse if he tired - but then jockeys have to worry about not riding out for best placing. It's a lottery.

So many diff ways to look at this issue. It is a hard decision for an owner to run a horse again so soon after a good run but often it does work out. It's a personal choice tho and I would not want one of mine to run so soon. But I know I would have a fight on my hands as those I share with have run and won in those circumstances.

Trainers of course give multiple entries and sometimes the decision is taken to take up more than one of them when orginally thought was the horse would go for one only. Some horses take their racing a lot better than others. I worry about mine, and often get the mickey taken out of me because of that. Especially as I am female and everyone thinks I am being 'cuddly furry'.

I think it works well with sprinters but in my own humble opinion I would feel uncomfortable running a longer distance horse so soon. There is even one high profile sprinter who runs too often for my liking.

All of us learn by trial and error and sadly it is the horse who suffers most.

Through losses like this trainers learn the risk and can better measure the whether to run or not. Sometimes it is just accident with no cause though. Due to the percieved risk, I can name two trainers who refuse to run their horses too often, Hughie Morrison and David Elsworth, both go for longeivity because they have seen good horses broken down from over campaign. You cannot take Dessie as a normal example of how David campaigns his, Des was an exception to everything. Both lose horses from their yards due to owners wanting to run more often.

Anyway, very sad loss of Armariver - and I know the connections will be gutted too. All of them. :(
 
Poor performance from Robert Cooper today as noted elsewhere, but credit due, at least they told us the fate of the two injured horses. Even if he stuttered his way through the information.

It's a drag ..... :(
 
Yes, he did tell us, although RED SOCIETY (such a good record of placings and some wins, too) could be seen clearly going wrong and was missed completely by Ian Mckenzie, the race caller. I'm fed up with these so-called 'callers' not even noting what's happening - the horse was going well enough when the jockey starts to PU. Poor wee IT'S THE LIMIT - the first and only win. I imagine Dims is glad she wasn't in attendance to see all this today.

I don't know what's wrong with Cooper today, he seems to have his mind elsewhere, is stuttering all over everything and seems out of it.
 
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