2008 Departures

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Sorry, Venusian I don't/won't listen to the opinion of a "spokesman" for the RSPCA. You have to question why anyone would listen to their opinions. What proffessional knowledge would they really have.

I would much prefer to listen to the opinions of the people at the sharp end of the industry. ie. senior trainers (especially those that were NH jockeys) and of course today's jockeys. These are the people at the at end of the day that are ultimately responsible for the safety of the racehorses (and jockeys) on our racetracks and these are the people that should be speaking to the necessary authorities about the best way to proceed. It is clearly an issue.

Monitoring the modified Haydock waterjump is now crucial and I am sure many people will be watching closely.
 
Well, Kathy, I can only repeat my earlier posting - death rates at water jumps average around 1, that's ONE, per year since 2001.

Also, jockeys are generally in favour of keeping them, provided they're modified at the "lip end", the reason being that they are less likely to end up on the ground at them.
 
Kathy, I think you are making a sweeping generalisation with regard to the RSPCA there.

I am sure that there are many RSPCA officers who know horses very well.
 
Colin,

There is a difference between knowing horses very well, and being in a position to advise on what is and isn't safe for a racehorse with regard to specific NH fences - some may say this is specialist knowledge.

If the RSPCA were so knowledgeable about horses per se, then there may not have been the tragedy of so many horses and donkeys dead and dying in Amersham recently.

Sorry, Colin but the RSPCA's opinions from one of their spokesmen (does he/she not even have a name?) holds absolutely no water with me.
 
Originally posted by Venusian@Mar 27 2008, 06:13 PM
I understand that both the RSPCA and jockeys are keen for (suitably modified) water jumps to be retained. They don't want them to be replaced by plain fences, beacuse of the increased risk of falls.


Exactly. it's just because almost all of the remaining water jumps HAVE been modified so that horses can take their measure that they are now so safe. The injuries which killed horses in the past and still do at a very few courses, happen because if a horse jumps short and leaves its hind legs in the water, its legs slip backwards - esp if the lining is plastic or shingle, resulting in bad injuries to the back and rear leg muscles, and sometimes in death from a broken back. Dai Williams also lost one of his best horses Symbol of Success in this way in 1999 [see below]

The problem has often been that the jumps are badly designed. Those which have been modified have been given a ramp before the fence to enable the horse to see the water *before* takeoff; a slope instead of a step at the far edge of the jump; and now courses are installing non-slip material on the slope so that a horse can't do its back by slipping backwards.

Anything which saves horses from the kind of horrific injury and death we saw at these jumps 'in the old days' is a good thing. At least there has been another long debate in the RP on this which might prod the remaining few courses which haven't made the jumps less trappy, to do so now - and to make owners aware which courses these are

The Grand National course water jump used to be over three feet deep btw


<< Call to ban water jumps after Symbol death

Published: 13/03/1999 (News) Tony Smurthwaite

TRAINER Dai Williams called for the removal of all water jumps after the death of stable star Symbol of Success in the Horse and Hound Grand Military Gold Cup at Sandown yesterday, writes Tony Smurthwaite.
The hat-trick seeking gelding, ridden by Major Simon Robinson, came down at the water jump on the far side of the course and suffered a fractured shoulder. He was humanely destroyed.
Williams, for whom Symbol of Success had won nine races, was deeply disappointed at the loss, which came as he was preparing the horse for a $100,000 timber race in the US next month.
"Water jumps should be banned, they don't achieve anything," said Williams. "I've seen some horrific falls at them over the years. Some courses have done away with them while others have kept them on. Where is the sense in that?"
Williams absolved Robinson of any responsibility, adding that the rider was devastated and was blaming himself for the incident. The trainer said: "Accidents can happen, but courses are so inconsistent in having water jumps and horses are often not used to meeting them. I've lost three horses at water jumps over the years. I'm big enough to take this but it will be difficult for the staff in the yard to take it."
Andrew Cooper, Sandown's clerk of the course, said in response to the incident that he could well review the future of the water jump at Sandown. >>
 
I'm afraid, having become very involved in DogLost in the last six months, and having followed the hunting debate closely, I wouldn't have much faith in the RSPCA in any respect any more - and that was even before the Amersham horrors. They've become a political body rather than a welfare body, and it infects everything they do and say. For eg, RSPCA officers are often very reluctant to act when there is clear evidence of travellers not only stealing but mistreating large numbers of dogs.

That's beside the issue here, but I take Kathy's point that RSPCA 'spokespersons' have to be heard these days with a large pinch of salt
 
Originally posted by Kathy@Mar 24 2008, 04:30 PM
Taken from a Kim Baily's website, a NH trainer who clearly would have an opinion based on facts and he was reacting to Paul Nicholls request for water jumps to be removed. These people work in the industry and are responsible for the well being of the horses left in their charge not based based on the personal opinion of a work rider. To me it doesn't matter how many times some horses are schooled or where they are schooled. They may perfect it at times but one slip of concentration can result in a fatal injury. It can be an accident waiting to happen. Why do people want to put horses in unnecessary danger as losing even one racehorse at one of these jumps is one horse too many as far as I am concerned.

I dont really want to get involved with the whole dabate - from reading the last few pages Ludlow has changed since I last went there for a start!! PLUS - I have only seen a few problems at water jumps - one of which was a horse I looked after who fell and winded herself (but luckily that was all!) at Wincantons.

but surely anyone who agrees with this shouldnt really be involved with competition horses?? It can just as easily count for hurdle races/showjumping/eventing - and if I remember rightly, Kathys horse was goign to go novice chasing at some point - was he not goign to run at courses that have water jumps?

Im aware that it sounds a bit extreme,and Im truly not trying to have a pop at anyone - but thats the kind of quote that comes from the likes of Animal Aid and for anyone who owns or is involved with a NH horse to come out with it strikes me as a bit wrong???

Im not quite sure that what Ive put has come out right - but you get the gist!!

P.S. Im no fan of teh RSPCA either - but I do know someone who is closely involved with teh Amersham case - adn there is far far more to that than they have been allowed to make public - dont diss them too much for that one.
 
Just to prove there is nothing new under the sun:

From the RP Cuttings library:

<< Letter: Lethal

Published: 27/03/1999 (Features) W Shacklady

W Shacklady calls for the abandonment of the water jump:

I WAS glad to see the issue of water jumps raised recently. They should have been consigned to history many moons ago, as they no longer serve any useful purpose, if indeed they ever did.
I suspect that their purpose was to provide the crowd with a spectacle, as a good proportion of them are situated in front of the stand. However, the only `spectacle' they are capable of providing is broken/damaged backs or hind legs swinging uselessly.

As Dai Williams pointed out, horses are not schooled over them, so they are, in effect, a trap. This argument was used for the modification of Becher's Brook after some high-profile casualties.
Will it need a Gold Cup star or household name to be killed at a water jump before the wheels start to turn? I sincerely hope not, and would suggest that all the voices so concerned with whip abuse could concentrate their efforts on something a tad more lethal.

If, as stated, the last water jump in Ireland was removed due to trainer/owner pressure, then why not employ the same approach here? It would need 100 per cent support, but I can't believe there is any owner or trainer who would be distraught at the demise of these deathtraps.
For the Jockey Club's director of field services, Tony Goodhew, to rely on statistics to try to justify water jumps is a bit of a cop out.

Britain is a country obsessed with damned statistics. Any time someone is in a sticky situation, they reel out loads of impressing-sounding stats. Well, statistics are like a lamp-post to a drunken man: great to lean on, but useless for illumination.
How many horses in Ireland since 1966 have lived to fight another day? Impossible to answer, I know, but has racing lost out in any way? I think not.
I know injuries to horses can occur anywhere, but surely it makes sense to take any step not to the detriment of racing to reduce these injuries. The removal of water jumps from every track would be a start.
W SHACKLADY Southport Merseyside >>


Also following the death of Symbol of Success and another horse int he same month:

<< Murphy: water jumps should be ripped up

Published: 20/03/1999 (News) GRAHAM DENCH

LEADING northern trainer Ferdy Murphy yesterday added his voice to calls for the abolition of water jumps following the deaths of two well-known horses in the space of five days.
Murphy, who claimed to have had several horses injured at such obstacles, described them as as "an aid to nobody", and called for them to be "ripped up".
Fatal injuries at water jumps befell both Symbol Of Success at Sandown eight days ago and Nearly An Eye at Cheltenham on Wednesday.
Nearly An Eye, trained by Paul Nicholls and a winner six times this season, fell and broke his neck in the Mildmay Of Flete Chase.
At Sandown, Dai Williams' Marlborough Cup winner Symbol Of Success had to be put down after breaking a shoulder in another sickening fall.
Williams left racecourses in no doubt that water jumps, now optional and already removed by around a quarter of racecourses, should be abolished.
He said: "The obstacle is pointless. It's a trap because nobody is required to have one at home for schooling purposes and so the first time a novice chaser sees one is when he gallops over it. They don't come back from falls at the water."
Nicholls was not so critical, but added that he "would not be bothered if there weren't any".
But Murphy insisted: "Water jumps should not be on any racecourse. I've had five horses hurt their backs over the last five years at water jumps. They are a disgrace, an aid to nobody. They should all be ripped up. In Ireland, the last water jump was taken out in 1966, at Leopardstown, as trainers refused to run their horses until it was removed. I wonder what is the point of them."
Sandown has since confirmed in writing that its water jump is to stay, but plans are in hand to remove them at Fontwell and Plumpton.
Clerk of the course David McHarg, who helped open the way for the removal of water jumps when allowed to build a new jumps track at Musselburgh without one, said: "I believe there have been two fatalities at Plumpton's water jump in the last 10 years, and we had two at one Scottish National meeting when I was at Ayr, so it was for safety reasons that we took that one out when allowed to." >>


<< Campaign for abolition of water jumps grows
Howard Wright's Column: Time to get rid of the water jump

Published: 19/03/1999 (News) Howard Wright

DAI WILLIAMS lost his best horse, Symbol Of Success, at the water jump at Sandown a week ago. Kelly Mac lost all chance at the water jump at Plumpton on Monday. Nearly An Eye lost his life at the water jump at Cheltenham on Wednesday.
It's time we lost the water jump altogether.
Whatever the safety figures might say, the obstacle serves no particular purpose any more. It's not a spectacle, since many of the courses which retain a water jump-Sandown and Plumpton among them-tuck it well away from the public. Nor is it a reasonable test of a horse's agility, since there is so little opportunity for preparation.
So what's the point? Better to get rid of them, and thereby remove any possible charge that the obstacle is unsafe.
Either that, or we should copy the Japanese, who, as part of raising the status of jump racing, are introducing higher fences in front of water jumps, "to encourage better concentration".



Published: 03/08/1999 (NEWS) GRAHAM GREEN

MICHAEL CHAPMAN is the latest trainer to demand the abolition of water jumps following the death of his seven-year-old novice chaser, Shahrani, at Market Rasen on Saturday night.
With the Lincolnshire track due to race again on Sunday, clerk of the course Charlie Moore has already begun the process that could result in the obstacle's withdrawal.
While making no promises, Moore, who was also tackled over the water jump by Harvey Smith and Peter Bowen, yesterday asked for his board of directors to be polled on the subject.
Moore said: "If the vote were for removal, I would seek the advice of the Jockey Club inspectorate, and, depending on what they say, we may then make an application to withdraw it."
Chapman's call echoes those of Dai Williams, who, with support from Ferdy Murphy, urged that all water jumps be "ripped up" after Symbol Of Success suffered fatal injuries at Sandown in March.
Only eight days earlier, the Paul Nicholls-trained Nearly An Eye fell and broke his neck at Cheltenham's water jump.
Shahrani is thought to have sustained serious damage to his spinal cord, and Chapman said: "Water jumps favour bad horses and disadvantage good horses who see a stride at a small jump, take off, and only see an expanse of water when in mid-air.
"Shahrani's back legs went in the plastic liner, slipped away from him, and he damaged his spinal chord.
"A lot of courses have got rid of these jumps. I would like them to disappear everywhere, and I certainly hope Market Rasen will act now."
Moore, who said this was the second fatality involving the water jump during his 10 years at the track, sympathised with Chapman's loss, but pointed out that if the water jump is removed, another obstacle would have to be built in its place to meet Jockey Club regulations on the number of jumps over various distances.
 
Trudi, you may also be aware that I have NEVER liked the idea of Bay Hawk going hurdling let alone chasing. You may also like to note that my trainer actually talks to me about what courses, what distances and what jockeys. I have been lucky enough to have possibly the kindest jockey riding him when he won over the hurdles - which you may want to check was also the condition if Bay Hawk every went chasing.

Bay Hawk was purchased in the memory of my late mother. It was the last horse she had seen race. She died very suddenly two weeks after she saw him run. Bay Hawk was bought as a flat horse (who had done some hurdling earlier in his career) and he won first time out for me on the allweather at Lingfield. A memory that will stay with me for as long as I live.

I do not particularly like owning a NH horse. It was never my plan but after long discussions with Brendan I agreed - ask Krizon how hard I find watching him over the hurdles.

Bay Hawk is now having a break whilst I decide what to do with him next. I will of course keep you posted Trudi to enable you to check where he is running, the type of race and whether or not there is a waterjump present.
 
I still can't understand why the nonsensical notion that a waterjump is a trick fence as horses don't school over them at home is constantly being peddled - and by people who should know far better. Strange how these who keep harking back to that old chestnut (trainers included) are also very conveniently overlooking the fact that a horse will not see an open ditch until it first gets onto a racecourse either. Another curious point is that those same trainers talking such rubbish are quite happy to run their horses in the cross country races also - even though their horses won't have jumped banks or fences resembling a large proportion of the obstacles that feature in the course. They'll happily send them hunting over fences they have never seen before either to qualify them to run in hunter chases - and out hunting is where you can often be taken by surprise mid-air when you realise there is a massive drop on the other side, or the fence is twice as wide as you think, or has a massive ditch on the other side, or water......

As I said before, all that is to be considered even before you start to think about hunters, eventers and showjumpers who will encounter obstacles they have never jumped before regularly in competition or the hunting field.

It must be remembered that there is a first time for everything - at some stage a horse has to jump a fence for the first time, jump a pole for the first time, see a racecrowd for the first time, and so on and so forth.
 
WTF?? Where did that response come from?? Why so agressive Kathy?? SLIGHTLY harsh I feel - All I did in my post was to say that it was a strong anti-obstacle opinion for any NH horse owner to have!!! I dont know you dont want him running in NH races - why would I? - the fact that he turns up for NH races suggests that you dont have a problem with it - especially when he has proved that hes still perfectly capable of running well on the flat - its not like hes slowed down any,and hes no dog that needs jumps to keep him interested!!!


Brendan rode horses that I looked after in my first few years in racing - and Mick has ridden plenty for me in the past too - Im well aware of their capabilities thankyou - IMO (which as an under 35 year old who only rides is obviously not worth anything!!!) he is amazing, and you would be hard pushed to find better if you want a horse to last a career.

Mind you - if you could tell me when he runs that would be nice - I dont take the blindest bit of notice of who owns what and where they go - I dont even realise forumite horses are running till I see the posts after they have run a lot of the time!!
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Mar 27 2008, 10:07 PM
I still can't understand why the nonsensical notion that a waterjump is a trick fence as horses don't school over them at home is constantly being peddled - and by people who should know far better. Strange how these who keep harking back to that old chestnut (trainers included) are also very conveniently overlooking the fact that a horse will not see an open ditch until it first gets onto a racecourse either. Another curious point is that those same trainers talking such rubbish are quite happy to run their horses in the cross country races also - even though their horses won't have jumped banks or fences resembling a large proportion of the obstacles that feature in the course. They'll happily send them hunting over fences they have never seen before either to qualify them to run in hunter chases - and out hunting is where you can often be taken by surprise mid-air when you realise there is a massive drop on the other side, or the fence is twice as wide as you think, or has a massive ditch on the other side, or water......

As I said before, all that is to be considered even before you start to think about hunters, eventers and showjumpers who will encounter obstacles they have never jumped before regularly in competition or the hunting field.

It must be remembered that there is a first time for everything - at some stage a horse has to jump a fence for the first time, jump a pole for the first time, see a racecrowd for the first time, and so on and so forth.
Shads, take a license out now. You are the only person I know who knows what is required. All these trainers who are calling for water jumps to be abolished (Jonjo Ferdy Paul N.) are either lazy or don't know how to train a horse to jump. You are probably the best jockey I never saw ride and only wish now that I can say 'ahh but what a trainer'.
 
I see from Pat Murphy's website that Greenwood has been retired, sound at the age of 10, and is expected to enjoy a happy and rewarding new life outside racing. Pat is a great supporter of HEROS btw.

Sara Moore just failed by half a length to win the Ascot Diamond on this horse 2 years ago, in a tight finish with Marie Morris on Lincolneurocruiser - having won on him about a month earlier at Lingfield. He raced 107 times, and last raced on March 19th, coming 4th at Lingers; and was often ridden by Steve Drowne or Robert Havlin, as well as a string of East Garston apprentices.

No superstar, but a thoroughly admirable horse!
 
His last run was at Kempton.
I thought he'd done enough there to suggest they'd be able to win another race with him.
He's a horse I've followed over the years especially during the early part of his career with James Eustace.
Backed him in a few occasions and seem to recall backing him one day when he won at Windsor (looking on the RP it may be the day he beat old Juuwi).
 
Maybe it is time to draw a line under the water jump debate or move it to a separate thread. The fact that there are such a mix of view suggests that it is a topic worth discussing in its own thread so I will set one up and lets leave this thread for those horses that gave us so much pleasure in the past.
 
Pencil House broke down at Newcastle on 26th ....he was PTS due to the injury...trained by D McCain Jnr :(
 
I'd just like to add - before anyone else does! - that I am of course wrong about the open ditches. Trainers have to have an open ditch schooling fence at home but they will be on a smaller scale. The points still stand about hunting, cross country races, eventing, showjumping, yada yada......thus making the point about not schooling over water defunct, in my opinion.

It's also probably worth pointing out that a lot of jockeys prefer water jumps, considering them to be safer than plain fences.

Tetley, get back in your box. Jealousy and bitterness are not attractive traits....
 
FARMER BROWN, winner of the 2007 Guinness Galway Hurdle, collapsed and died at trainer Pat Hughes's County Carlow stables on Sunday. :(
 
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