2018 Gold Cuppin'

Desert Orchid said:
I took another ante-post bet for the Gold Cup this evening, prompted by the Bryony Frost debate.

Saphir Du Rheu 66/1 ew NRNB & BOG

I backed him in the Gold Cup last year as well as in the National. He used Cheltenham as a prep run for Aintree last season and I wonder if maybe they think he might have gone very close if they'd trained him seriously for it. The fact that they've now declared he won't go for the National and that Sam T-D will ride means he's still regarded as the stable's best staying chaser. If he turns up on the day he'll be no more than 33/1. If he doesn't, no harm done.

I'll copy this across to the long shot thread.
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Missing Kelso was obviously not the original plan so all this hullabaloo about who rides Saphir Du Rheu may be pointless. Going straight to the Gold Cup and definitely not going to Aintree the whole thing stinks of PN BS-ing Stewart

The Gold Cup was hardly a prep race for the National last season DO (got t say it..that is nonsense) he had the prep race for the Gold Cup at Kelso and PN was delighted with the way he came out of the race. He was 110% for Cheltenham like all of PN's are

Didn't Sam only decided on riding him in the national after the good run in the Gold Cup and the softening ground going against Vicente?

At least you have a chance of a return with NRNB
 
Grasshopper said:
No trouble for BDM at the top of the hill that I noticed, DO.

He was still in contention coming down the hill (4th), but lost his pitch jumping three-out (jumped it clean) as they quickened into the bend, and all he did from that point was stay-on, until the mistake at the last.

SDR was kept wide throughout - possibly down to jumping concerns - but appeared to run his race.

There were no hard-luck stories in the last Gold Cup, on my viewing.
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Cheers, GH.

This is my review of last year's race:
3.30 TIMICO CHELTENHAM GOLD CUP CHASE (GRADE 1) (CLASS 1) (5yo+) Winner £327,463 14 runners 3m2f70y Good
[TABLE="width: 587"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD]RES[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]HORSE[/TD]
[TD]AGE[/TD]
[TD]WGT[/TD]
[TD]TRAINER RTF%[/TD]
[TD]JOCKEY[/TD]
[TD]OR[/TD]
[TD]MON[/TD]
[TD]Notes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Sizing John[SUP]33[/SUP][/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]11-10[/TD]
[TD]Mrs John Harrington[SUP]60[/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Robbie Power[/TD]
[TD]167[/TD]
[TD]169[/TD]
[TD]p[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Minella Rocco[SUP]33[/SUP]tp[SUP]1[/SUP] [/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]11-10[/TD]
[TD]Jonjo O´Neill[SUP]47[/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Noel Fehily[/TD]
[TD]156[/TD]
[TD]167[/TD]
[TD]p[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Native River[SUP]34[/SUP]p [/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]11-10[/TD]
[TD]Colin Tizzard[SUP]20[/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Richard Johnson[/TD]
[TD]168[/TD]
[TD]167[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Djakadam[SUP]79[/SUP] [/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]11-10[/TD]
[TD]W P Mullins[SUP]45[/SUP][/TD]
[TD]R Walsh[/TD]
[TD]165[/TD]
[TD]167[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Saphir Du Rheu[SUP]29[/SUP] [/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]11-10[/TD]
[TD]Paul Nicholls[SUP]44[/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Sam Twiston-Davies[/TD]
[TD]156[/TD]
[TD]165[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]More Of That[SUP]33[/SUP]p [/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]11-10[/TD]
[TD]Jonjo O´Neill[SUP]47[/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Aidan Coleman[/TD]
[TD]157[/TD]
[TD]162[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

I don’t know about you but I sometimes wonder if people who don’t crunch their own numbers see races so much differently. I thought this was an okay race to watch but no doubt plenty will have thought it very exciting. I couldn’t get worked up about it seeing that Smad Place wasn’t asked to race prominently, or that Outlander was never in it, or that Bristol De Mai seemed to meet every other fence wrong, frequently losing ground at them. Even as the race reached its dénouement the presence of Minella Rocco and More Of That had me questioning the value of the form. Cue Card wasn’t even going as well as he can when he did an encore of last year’s fall three out. I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that he might have rallied up the hill had he negotiated the fence as he can hit a flat spot.

I’m using Native River as the most likely guide to the form, repeating his mark from both the Hennessy and Welsh National. It means Djakadam was below form but to rate it via him would make Minella Rocco and Saphir Du Rheu uncomfortably high. Were the latter scenario to be the correct one it would mean Saphir Du Rheu would probably just need to negotiate the fences safely at Aintree to hack up there. I can live with that!

Sizing John’s 169 is bog-standard bang average for a Gold Cup. Coneygree would have had him for dinner. But Sizing John is young enough to have plenty of improvement. Given the first three are all 7yos leaves the door open for all of them to improve further by this time next year so the clouds have silver linings and if the form is better than I’m rating it, so much the better.
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Am I correct in hearing that Disko is not entered in the Irish gold cup??

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I've noticed a few firms have had the Cotswold Chase priced up this week and unless I'm missing something ( huge possibility ) I can't find entries anywhere. Surely they haven't just priced up a random group of horses for this ?
 
I really dislike Colin Tizzard for some reason. Taking Paddy off Cue Card didn't help.

Looks as if he is trying to justify running him again in the Racing Post article as he knows racing fans will be displeased

Of course he has very little chance of winning another Grade 1 especially not the Gold Cup which Tizzard is aiming him at which some would say is madness..even cruel

However when you look at it from a business point of view why would you retire him?

As long as he still enjoys the day out does it really matter of he trails in a well beaten 2nd?.

The last race he ran in he got totally stuffed and for that stuffing picked up 45k for finishing 2nd

We may not agree with it but I'd take bets he turns up at Haydock again next year as long as he has four working legs
 
If you are trying to screw place-money out of a 12yo who owes you nothing, and who put you on the map when he was a 4yo, you aren’t a business-man - you’re a cu*nt.

Cue Card is a pale, pale shadow of the champion we once knew, and wants retiring, before all we remember is how badly he was treated towards the end of his career.
 
12yo for a jumper is not that old. They should all be running at this age if healthy. Going out on a high, winning perhaps his final race before retirement would be a dream for many not only his connections, but trying that feat doesn't take anything away from his old accomplishments. This expression 'doesn't owe anything to anyone' is such a shitty way of saying you're a big loser and give up on a horse that gave you so much, basically taking away his life as a professional athlete because you(the trainer/owner) are afraid of losing.
 
I knew sprinters that ran as 14yo's, they were leading the youngsters every morning at Milton Bradley yard, I'll let you guess who that was.. Horses love racing and training, taking that away mid-season is the stupid thing to do, if the horse is fine and healthy. How great was that Kauto Star still ran as a 12 yo and won the KG and attempted to win the GC.. he failed, oh no Nicholls is such a terrible person. Bunch of chumps the owners/trainers that use that phrase 'owe anything to anyone', not that Tizzard used it but if he had for Cue Card with the horse being totally healthy and ready for racing.
 
I don't like the idea of forcing horses to race beyond their point of steep decline unless the horse is giving every indication at home of enjoying the training regime and going racing.

The people best placed to judge that are those most closely connected to the horse. I think we need to trust them to do the right thing by the horse, as Jeremy Scott & co did recently with Melodic Rendezvous.
 
But DO, they might think the horse will have a chance of winning at the festival, he's giving the right signs and lets say he will run badly. By Grass judgement we'll think of Tizzard as a horrible trainer for trying? Thats the point I was making, some horses at 12yo are not that old, especially in jump racing where losing the speed with age is not a issue. Thats why they introduced those veteran races if they are fit they have a choice to go for them, obviously the ones less talented than Cue Card..
 
Aughex said:
But DO, they might think the horse will have a chance of winning at the festival, he's giving the right signs and lets say he will run badly. By Grass judgement we'll think of Tizzard as a horrible trainer for trying? Thats the point I was making, some horses at 12yo are not that old, especially in jump racing where losing the speed with age is not a issue. Thats why they introduced those veteran races if they are fit they have a choice to go for them, obviously the ones less talented than Cue Card..
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Yes, I was agreeing with you.
 
Aughex said:
But DO, they might think the horse will have a chance of winning at the festival, he's giving the right signs and lets say he will run badly. By Grass judgement we'll think of Tizzard as a horrible trainer for trying? Thats the point I was making, some horses at 12yo are not that old, especially in jump racing where losing the speed with age is not a issue. Thats why they introduced those veteran races if they are fit they have a choice to go for them, obviously the ones less talented than Cue Card..
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Cue Card - when he actually completes - is operating at a level which is getting on for 2-stone below his best.

Tizzard is the worst person to judge whether or not the horse should be retired, because he is blinkered about him. Prior to every race for the last two seasons, he has told all-and-sundry that the horse was still in the form of his life, only for it to be followed by abject failure on the racecourse. He cannot - or will not - accept that the horse is a shadow of former glories.

He has absolutely no chance of winning a meaningful race at this late stage in his career, and as for his age, you (Aughex) are talking complete bollocks. The anount of G1 winners who were still able to operate at that level as 12yos, can be counted on the fingers of zero-hands.

This horse has fallen in half of his chases in the last two seasons, and had the arse (and probably heart) pulled out of him at Haydock. I sincerely hope that those advocating a final, pointless, hurrah, don’t end-up lamenting their support, should the horse be seriously-injured (or worse) by being run in a grade which he is patently no longer good enough to operate at.
 
Agree. If Coney Island comes over for the Ascot race he'd be facing that horse, Top Notch and Waiting Patiently. Meaning he has no chance.
 
Lotta people said Ryan Price was mad for running What a Myth in the Gold Cup who was also running way below his previous mark.

It depends on the horse Kauto was 4 days off of 12 when setting a record that will never be broken loads of 11 year olds have won major races Sonny Summers was winning at 15 years old.

I don't like Tizzard but I am not going to be as stupid as to say I know better than him......he lives with the horse and he's run way below form many times in the past and bounced back...........so Grassy you are entitled to your opinion but frankly you don't have a clue of how the horse is and neither do I
 
It saddened me so much to see Moscow go a few races too many.

Cue Card is a shadow of himself. Let bygones be bygones and a happy retirement beckons.
 
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