A Fundamental Question

Originally posted by Desert Orchid@Aug 24 2006, 11:21 AM
As she lay gasping for a few last, despairing breaths, my mother told us 'they' were all waiting for her, calling her. 'They' were all her brothers and sister who had gone before marked with the sign of faith and now at rest. She said she could see them all, including her young brother who died in childhood, and named them all as though pointing them out in an old photo.

Could she see them or was she hallucinating?

I know what I believe.
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A similar thing happened recently. My friend Sheila had been very ill for some time. In the weeks leading up to her death she spoke a number of times of being able to see her deceased sisters at the end of the bed calling her towards them. I don't believe she was hallucinating and I'm sure she's with them now.
 
Originally posted by krizon@Aug 24 2006, 11:34 AM
What about the millions of Communists who died during Stalin's purges, who were indoctrinated against faith as much as the millions who were indoctrinated into it?
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**** 'em.
 
Kri, I believe that God is there for every one of us regardless of whether we believe or not. If I didn't believe that I couldn't believe in Him.

I find it hard to get my head round the notion that God 'takes' life, as is so often expressed euphemistically to help people cope with tragedy.

There was a radio ad doing the rounds last year. It said if the history of the world were written in a book the size of the bible, man wouldn't appear until halfway down the last page. In terms of the bigger picture, we're only just here and have an infinitessimally large number of things to learn - like not living in areas likely to be destroyed by nature.

I'm much more comforted in the belief that God receives us when we die and has prepared a place for us.
 
Originally posted by Desert Orchid@Aug 24 2006, 12:35 PM
It said if the history of the world were written in a book the size of the bible, man wouldn't appear until halfway down the last page.
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So did he invent cannabis first and sit stoned for 5.97 billion years before decided that he quite fancied the idea of having some small people running about on one if his planets?

More seriously, how do you reconcile the whole Darwin vs Genesis thingy DO?
 
Originally posted by Desert Orchid@Aug 24 2006, 01:35 PM


I'm much more comforted in the belief that God receives us when we die and has prepared a place for us.
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I just hope that my place is not next to fecking yours, that’s all... or you'll still be trying to teach me how to SPELL & set out my GRAMMAR????? :P :D ;)
 
I just hope that my place is not next to fecking yours, that’s all... or you'll still be trying to teach me how to SPELL & set out my GRAMMAR?????
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He'd only have eternity. Not nearly enough time, I'm afraid.
 
:( In the blink of an eye, there goes 'goodwill to all men'! See, there's no way we're all sitting around 'up there', all suddenly sweet and saccharine towards each other. Look, did everyone adore and respect all their nearest and dearest in life? There are a fair few people who don't know their fathers, wouldn't want their mothers within 500 yards of them without a hunting rifle to hand, and did nothing but fight and squabble with their brothers and sisters. Now, at the point of death, there are all these sweetly-smiling and beckoning family members crowding round the bed (in old-time Catholic families, it must've been mighty crowded!) and then - what? You're wafted away into a warm, loving embrace which the buggers never gave you in your life?

What about the murderers (mass/spree/serial/genocidal, etc.), the rapists, the child ruiners, the brutes who beat up their wives and kids - do they see their family sweetly smiling at the ends of their beds, murmuring with the tongues of angels and urging them to join them among the heavenly hosts?

Seems like it, according to believers. So why bother to be a decent person? Why not just get out there, take what you want, bash anyone around, bugger the boy next door, kill your annoying wife and set fire to your granny's hair? At the end of it all, your Mum and Dad will be there, grinning from spectral ear to ear, to assure you that all's well and you're on your way to a happy, loved and loving eternity.

AC, is not the irony of your conclusion that the dead horses thread was over-sentimental apparent now, when faced with how slushy and gushy we can get over our own dead and dying? We may be sorry a horse dies, we may weep when a favourite of ours or someone else's is killed, but it's nothing compared to what we can manifest about our own mortality and its due process.
 
Krizon, you misinterpret me.

I believe God is there for us but I presumed - wrongly obviously - that it went without saying that we need to want to be there.

My mother didn't have an enemy in the world and never set out to harm anyone. She was a very kind person who devoted a lot of her time to the church and the large church building was standing room only at her funeral. One of the many Protestants who came along later joked they'd wished they'd brought along sandwiches for the Communion ceremony because it took so long to administer to all those attending.

People who reject God in their life in this world can hardly expect to meet him in the next. God will sit in judgment of them when their time comes and will decide whether to accept them into his kingdom.

Why would you conclude that evil people will automatically be received? There has to be some form of divine justice. Some people live a life many would consider evil yet can become reconciled before their own death. Many people living find it hard to get their head round that one but it isn't for me to question God's judgment. He will know if they do renounce evil and if they are truly repentant. If I believe in the forgiveness of sins, I have to believe I will be forgiven if I am truly repentant. Otherwise I really am f*cked.
 
Originally posted by krizon@Aug 24 2006, 11:34 AM
So what about non-believers, DO? ....... Does not one single one of them enter the doors of heaven, since they renounced a divinity? So God takes on board only those who believe in him, and yet he made the whole world, and all mankind in his own image? All those North Korean kiddies now prancing in unified step before their Great Leader, waving their banners and doing back-flips for the mother country? Not one of those is going to heaven upon their demise?

I have this Pythonesque image of the Christian God, sitting on his throne of clouds, judging, "You, yes, you, you, you, no! Not you, not you, not you, yes, you, you, you, NO - bugger off, you slant-eyed heathen - you, ah, hallo Mrs O'Halloran, nice to see you... "

Tell me it isn't like a 1950s Surrey golf club.
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Oh dear! oh my!! I'm ROFLing like crazy. The dogs think I'm having a fit
This is a serous subject, whcih seems to be causign a lot of naval-gazing, angst, and aggro -
but this just makes me larf and larf. Thanks Krizon

I lost my best dog 11 years ago and still think of her and miss her every day. I grieved for her for a year or more, in the way one would for a person; I was desolated by her loss. She'd been with me since the year I married, been with me in three different countries, seen me through the divorce and the difficult forging of a whole new life. She was my best friend, through all of that... maybe only people who live alone canunderstand that

As for horses, some we lament, and some we truly grieve for. I have press cuttings of Ei Ei although I never saw him in the flesh - but I do wish I had. He was charismatic even on the telly, I was extremely upset when he died. But I was there the day Persian Punch collapsed and died, right in front of me. I went totally to pieces as did many on the course - about half the crowd just left. I wept for him on and off for months, in fact I still do if let myself dwell on it. Who knows why or how one horse, [or dog, or man] can get under your skin?

This doesn't mean we have souls - no siree. Let those who believe in the Mass, believe. Let those who believe in our responsibility to and for the animals we tame and use, deal with that in their own way. No-one should be mocked for their feelings or for the way they come to terms with the moral ambiguities which racing throws up, sometimes to our discomfort.

It's easy enough to avoid a thread in this forum if it offends or irritates, so why read it if you don't like it?
 
DO, up above you posted that you're comforted that God receives us when we die, and has prepared a place for us. From that I deduced you believed that God receives all people when they die, etc., and not just some. What I don't get is that a non-believer could be a very kind, ethical, caring person on this mortal coil, die, and not be received because they chose not to believe in the existence of God. In other words, you're saying that you're comforted that God receives (only) those who believe in Him. So a truly evil swine could attend Church, go to Mass, say his prayers five times a day or whatever it takes to show outward belief, and be received into the grace of God because he believes, even though he remains a swine unto death. No doubt that's why churchmen feel no real remorse when they're found kiddy-fiddling - they maintain and overtly practise their belief - or they're protected by their leaders by merely being moved to another parish - they die murmuring prayers and they'll be received while better people who happen to be non-believers aren't. I really don't understand.
 
God is an act of faith Kri. It is not rational, and you are a rationalist. You won't be able to box this one up neatly.
 
Well, I guess I can - it's gone into my box labelled 'irrational'!

This is odd: I've never thought of myself under any particular label, but now I know I have one. Perhaps being called a rationalist helps me to understand why I always want to know the what, when, where, why and how of things, and was never satisfied with a 'because it is' response as a kid, and still aren't as an adult. I imagine it's rationalism which drives archaeologists, astronomers, all kinds of scientists, detectives and other investigative activity (including dosage, ratings and form buffs!), although some of them do put that trait aside in order to embrace a faith.
 
Originally posted by krizon@Aug 24 2006, 11:44 PM
DO, up above you posted that you're comforted that God receives us when we die, and has prepared a place for us. From that I deduced you believed that God receives all people when they die, etc., and not just some. What I don't get is that a non-believer could be a very kind, ethical, caring person on this mortal coil, die, and not be received because they chose not to believe in the existence of God. In other words, you're saying that you're comforted that God receives (only) those who believe in Him. So a truly evil swine could attend Church, go to Mass, say his prayers five times a day or whatever it takes to show outward belief, and be received into the grace of God because he believes, even though he remains a swine unto death. No doubt that's why churchmen feel no real remorse when they're found kiddy-fiddling - they maintain and overtly practise their belief - or they're protected by their leaders by merely being moved to another parish - they die murmuring prayers and they'll be received while better people who happen to be non-believers aren't. I really don't understand.
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Krizon, again you misinterpret me.

Yes, I believe God is there for people whom He deems worthy of a place beside Him regardless of whether or not they believe in Him.

There will be plenty of churchgoing folk and clergy a lot less worthy of a place than non-believers but that's not for me to judge.
 
Originally posted by simmo@Aug 24 2006, 12:40 PM
More seriously, how do you reconcile the whole Darwin vs Genesis thingy?
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No one want to take me up on this? I should add that I am serious, I really can't get my head round how people reconcile their faith in christianity with the discoveries of science.
 
I wasn't WILFULLY doing any misinterpretation, DO. It's just that the issue of who gets to heaven is pretty fuzzy. I used to go to Sunday school because I wanted to, not because I was encouraged to (I wasn't). I suppose I didn't drift into churchgoing because I didn't like many of the people I knew who went, and how they behaved in their lives. I didn't see the need to go to a church to vow to try and be halfway decent to other folk, and I thought it led to a lot of rather smug, self-satisfied 'otherness'. The sort of 'I'm saved, and the rest of you are going to Hell' attitude so beloved now of Christian and Islamic fundie zealots, in fact. I know it doesn't always go like that, but it seemed to, to me.

Some of the issues that raised themselves to me every now and then were: what was the purpose of 'heaven' and what was the purpose of having a soul, if it wasn't engaged in making its owner a better person HERE on Earth? Why does Christianity place so much emphasis on things being better for you when you're DEAD? Was it connected in any way with the fact that the majority of peoples were desperately poor, badly treated by any employers they had, disenfranchised, likely to die young and/or horribly because of the awful conditions of their time, etc.? Was it a way of keeping people in their place, knowing their station in life, etc., rather than the Church actively trying to better their lives for them - as eventually Unions did through their struggles - with the promise that once they'd snuffed it, they'd be in Elysian Fields beyond their wildest mundane imaginings?

Simmo, you'll find that many scientists avow a faith in some religion or other, and say yes, it's a dichotomy, because - as An Capall has helpfully pointed out - faith is irrational and therefore at loggerheads with the rationalism their work demands. 'Faith' is unseeable, unsmellable, untouchable, won't go under a microscope, doesn't pop out of an 'easy home assembly' box, and is purely a mental and emotional construct. It's like being in love, in other words. Why do you love THAT person, who has just the same number of limbs and eyes as another? All humans are (well, hopefully) constructed the same way, there are a few cosmetic differences such as skin and hair, and then it's all down to adoring just the ONE out of millions, and not being able to say exactly why that one is so very dear to you, and the others aren't. I'm sure pheromones don't explain it all!
 
AC, pay attention at the back! We're asking you who believe in souls to tell us who don't what exactly a soul is, what it does, what purpose does it serve, and why do we think we only 'get' a soul after we die? Don't we carry it around inside us? Isn't our soul what informs how we treat others day to day, not just on holy days? How is our soul different from our 'personality'?

For those of us having trouble knowing WHAT a soul is, how can we say if horses have souls? Or dogs? Or trees? Certainly animists will believe in the spirit of trees, winds, rocks, etc., so where are we to start or draw a line?

Definitions, please. Or is the real fundamental question which you have been unable to answer 'what is a soul'?
 
I understand that faith is irrational etc etc. What I don't understand is how a person reconciles within themselves something which is proven to be incorrect.

For example, with the Darwinian thing - you have a person who believes that god created man (in one day). You then have the supposedly proven fact that man was not created in one day, he evolved into the being that he is (and has continued evolving).

As I see it, the options are:

1) Decry the evolution thing as lies.
2) Believe in both, ignoring the fact that they contradict each other.
3) Invent some addition to the god created man in one day story so that it also fits the evolutionary theory.
4) Decry the teachings of the church as lies and take a steadfast stand on the side of science.
5) Believe in evolution and mentally gloss over the bible's version of events (although to my way of thinking, this would lead in fairly short order to the option directly above).

No doubt there are other options which I have not considered.
Of the options above, I believe that options 1 and 4 are the most satisfactory with the others all being a cop-out to some degree.

Anyone who has faith care to add another option or choose one from above?
 
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