Arkle Appreciation Group

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ArkleSupreme

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Not sure if this has already been done on this forum though I would like to turn the clock back and form an Arkle Appreciation Group where members can share their memories of the greatest steeplechaser ever seen,winner of 22 of his 26 chases,with mitigating circumstances surrounding each of his 4 defeats, in which he was always placed,whilst he ran the majority of his chases carrying top weight of 12st 7lbs, and even 12st 10lbs on one occasion ,conceding stones in weight to Gold Cup winners,Gold Cup placed horses and other top class chasers in their own right.
One example is Freddie who was given top weight in the Grand National of 1965,whom he destroyed conceding over 2 stone to,which would have meant his weight had he run would have been 14 stone plus (or to reflect reality he would have carried 12st 7lbs and every other horse would be on 10st or less !!
He was unbeaten at 4 Cheltenham Festivals,won the greatest Gold Cup ever run in 1964 beating the reigning Champion,Mill House,by 5 lengths with another previous Gold Cup winner,Pas Seul,a further 20 lengths back in third place,whilst he beat Mill House by 20 lengths in the 1965 race,and cantered home alone by 30 lengths in 1966 starting at 1/10 !!

Only an unfortunate premature end to his career ,aged 9, prevented him from winning the next 3 Gold Cups as results proved he would have,giving him an astounding 6 Gold Cups !
A total phenomenon and no horse has come anywhere near him since then !
 
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Hopefully,positive comments made about him only and no nonsense talk ?

Moscow Flyer was certainly the best 2 mile chaser since Flyingbolt..though he would have been hard pushed to beat the Master Minded of 2008 and 2009,and now Sprinter Sacre has emerged and could be the best since Flyingbolt for sure !
 
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Who did Arkle beat, though?



:ninja:

PS. moscow would bave cuffed Master Minded at all stages of MM's career.
 
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Grasshopper,hope you are not a wind-up merchant ?

He demolished 2 great Gold Cup winners, as I have already mentioned,as well as future Gold Cup winners Woodland Venture and What A Myth conceding stones to both of them !

He was imperious over any trip or ground and those of us lucky enough to have seen him know that nothing has come within 2 stones of him since...despite Timeform placing Kauto Star 21lbs behind him...bearing in mind Denman proved superior to him 3 times out of the 4 they met, and, that would have been all 4 but for his debilitating heart problem which meant he was nowhere near the same horse in 2009 !
 
Colin,surely you don't want to forget the past either ?

Assumedly,you would not be interested in any quizzes either ?
 
ArkleSupreme said:
Only an unfortunate premature end to his career ,aged 9, prevented him from winning the next 3 Gold Cups as results proved he would have,giving him an astounding 6 Gold Cups !
A total phenomenon and no horse has come anywhere near him since then !
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An outrageous suggestion. He'd definitely have beaten the overrated L'Escargot in 1970 and '71, and let's be blunt, even an ageing Arkle would have blown Glencaraig Lady away, and that run would give him the beating of slowboat The Dikler. He was a much better jumper than Captain Christy, and Ten Up wouldn't even have run in 1975 if the Duchess's great champ was on his game, which brings his total up to 12. At that stage, I'd think about retirement, but the idea of facing handicappers in 1976 and 1977 might have convinced connections to hold off, and who can blame them?
 
I love it ,Rorydelargy....maybe even I underestimated his prowess after all !!

Even the 6 stones inferior Mac Vidi was placed in a Gold Cup aged 15...so who knows ??
 
Arkle's defeats of Mill House is how he should be judged and not giving lumps of weight away to inferior animals like Freddie or Height of Fashion.

Weight stops good horses it doesn't make horses like Freddie or Height of Fashion go faster,

The best performances of Arkle's career probably came in the Hennessy when he carried 12st. 7lb. and Mill House carried 12st 4lb. Arkle won by 10 lengths the confirmed his superiority by defeating Mill House by 28 lengths in the Gold Cup.

The Gallagher Gold Cup came later when it was a foregone conclusion that Mill House was no where near as good as Arkle.

Arkle carried 12st 7lb, Mill House 11st.5lb and Arkle simply slaughtered him. There was much made of the fact Arkle had knocked 17 seconds of the track record but the record had only stood for a short time. Some forget that Mill House was also beaten by Rondetto that day and ran well below his best. Mill House was injured but did make a comeback after injury and won the Whitbread.

Even Arkle found the carrying of weight beyond him on a couple of occasions. Stalbridge Colonist getting 35lbs manged to lower hos colours in the Hennessy as did Flying Wild and Bonna Notte but these were very good horses and Arkle had a massive 12st. 10lb to carry when the latter pair beat him in the Massey Ferguson.

There was no central handicapping back in those days it was a mess and no one could really take 212 seriously these days but if Kauto Star was 190 then Arkle would have to have been around 204 if you believe the true test of greatness is the Gold Cup. If it were the King George there wouldn't have been 5 lbs between them with Arkle just coming out on top despite only having one won.....by rights 2 but he broke down in the King George with the race well and truly won, which ended his career.

Up until lately Kauto Star was regarded as the best chaser since Arkle. His performance in the King George in 2009 was probably on a par with anything Arkle ever did but his Gold Cup performances fall well short. Overall Arkle was head and shoulders above him and would have given him a stone round the Gold Cup course but round Kempton WOW!!!!! what a race that would have been but I'd still have to have just favoured Arkle.

The thing about Arkle was he was a showstopper. Unlike Kauto Star Arkle was the Secretariat of his time. The entire country stopped when he was due to run and it was televised. Your Dad and Mum and even your Auntie Fanny knew who he was and he got sacks and sacks of Xmas cards and crates of Guinness at Xmas.

He was indeed and is a legend and there has been nothing like him since

At least not until now.

I've been watching racing longer than most members have been on this planet and I have never seen any horse come so close to grabbing the imagination like he did. Great prospects like Killiney, Nick Dundee Golden Gygnet and Gloria Victus could have been anything buy each has fallen by the wayside due to pure bad luck.

But now no sooner has Kaurto Star retired the best yet in my opinion has emerged from Seven Barrows in the shape of Sprinter Sacre.

Of all the prospects I have seen he looks better than any of them. When he took off at the 5th fence at Donnie I clearly remember thinking Geezus Christ this horse thinks he's Arkle. I was just calming down when he put in an even more spectacular leap and the 4th last and it really was like watching Arkle himself in that famous photo of him and Mill House when you could have added 18" to the fence and Arkle still wouldn't have touched a twig.

Since that day I have repeatedly said and even said it to Nicky that he is not the best I have seen since Arkle. He's the new Arkle.

A bold statement I know but I never thought I'd see the day when people would stop saying the best since Arkle and replace it with saying this fella might just be as good and many now have. (under their breath the cowards)

I can see a big debate on the horizon Arkle V Sprinter Sacre and I really hope it happens for racing's sake.

Arkle is and always will be a legend but there's always room for one more.

Many will argue giving lumps of weight away makes great horses but I disagree. Kauto could have given away 2 stone to most if he had to but thankfully he wasn't asked to but Denman proved it's not as difficult as it may seem when winning 2 Hennessy's. No doubt Kauto could have done the same had he been asked,

Beating top class animals with complete ease time and time again is much tougher to do IMO and I expect Sprinter Sacre to do just that.
 
rorydelargy said:
An outrageous suggestion. He'd definitely have beaten the overrated L'Escargot in 1970 and '71, and let's be blunt, even an ageing Arkle would have blown Glencaraig Lady away, and that run would give him the beating of slowboat The Dikler. He was a much better jumper than Captain Christy, and Ten Up wouldn't even have run in 1975 if the Duchess's great champ was on his game, which brings his total up to 12. At that stage, I'd think about retirement, but the idea of facing handicappers in 1976 and 1977 might have convinced connections to hold off, and who can blame them?
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They wouldn't have retired him they'd have just ran him twice a year.Once in the Champion Hurdle as a warm up and then straight into the Gold Cup so he'd have won 4 Champion Hurdles and 14 Gold Cups in total and they say Grassy takes the ****:lol:
 
Hi Tanlic,and I remember your namesake who was an excellent 4 year old hurdler trained by Denys Smith in the 60s !
Obviously,agree with your praise of Arkle but please don't insult him by suggesting Kauto Star would have got close to him at Kempton...Kauto would have been hard pressed to beat Desert Orchid around there..whilst even in his King George races Arkle was asked to concede 21 lbs to the opposition and he destroyed Dunkirk (literally sadly ) and he was a far better horse than Kauto Star over 2 -2 and a half miles whilst Arkle beat far superior horses and far easier than Kauto ever did and he was also found wanting when asked to concede merely a stone to Monets Garden so I very much doubt he would have been able to do a Denman in any handicap,let alone the Hennessy Gold Cup !

Surely,you also agree that Denman was his superior as borne out in their races together,and Denman reminded me a lot of Mill House and was most unfortunate to suffer with his debilitating heart problem otherwise he could have won 3 Gold Cups also !

Most certainly agree with you about the potential of Sprinter Sacre,however,and just hope he has far more luck in his career than the only other ill-fated chaser I would have mentioned in the same breath....Killiney !

However,if Sprinter Sacre only ever races over distances of 2 and a half miles or less then the comparisons will be with Flyingbolt...not Arkle, who will stand alone !

Great memories evoked.
 
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Tanlic belonged to Joe Lisle and yes you are correct he was trained by Denys but was it really the 60's?

Kauto was 10 canters short of a gallop when he was beaten by Monet Garden lets get real here.

Which far superior horses did Arkle beat?. Dunkirk was the fastest 2 miler I've ever seen and wouldn't have got 3 miles in a horse box so why you bring him into the equation is beyond me.

Kauto Star won 5 King George's and you think that his very best it would be insulting to Arkle to say he'd have given him a lot to think about.

Kauto slaughtered grade 1 winners like they were selling platers in 2009. AP said after the race fookin Pegasus wouldn't have beaten him today.

Sure Arkle may well have beaten him that day but that we can only guess at. but if he had he would have needed to go faster than he'd ever gone in his life.

The only horse Arkle beat that could be compared to the likes of Kauto was Mill House. I doubt if Stalbridge Colonist or one of my my all time fav What A Myth would have seen the way Kauto went.

As far as Denmans heart problem is concerened you are talking rubbish. It was neither serious nor would it have any lasting affect. Dogs get exactly the same problem and they don't even treat them and it disappears by itself.

He was never in the same class as Kauto who was a very sick horse when Denman beat him. Something that Ruby told the world but no one wanted to listen so he said fook you lot and let Kauto do the taking for him.

The day Neptune could get within 15 lengths of Kauto at his best hell would freeze over.

Or maybe you think it's pure coincidence he finished 7 lengths behind Denman in both Gold Cups but a neck behind Kauto in one and 22 lengths in the other.

Arkle was brilliant but in reality he wouldn't be anything like 16lbs better than Kauto not unless he was a friggin android.

Incidentally Flyingbolt was rated just below Arkle and was a better 3 miler than he was a 2 miler.......How strange another horse could outdo this unbeatable freak

Flyingbolt won the 1966 Irish National very easily from Arkle's old rival Height O'Fashion. He settled down beautifully and I was surprised how well he stayed. If top weight worried him, it never showed. He made winning look an easy thing that day. Once again I was reminded that I was alternating between the king and crown prince of chasing. More than ever, it now seemed only a matter of time before he took over from Arkle." PAT TAFFE

I reckon they had one thing in common........speed in their family trees.

Most horses back then were Dickler like, big brutes who stayed really well but lacked a turn of foot. Hoorses like King Nephew and Stoney Crossing were plodders and easy pickings for the likes of Arkle who was like a greyhound in comaparison.

No way of telling but one thing for sure he'd have found these French bred speed merchants that go chasing today a different ball game.

Just imagine Arkle (212) 12st7lbs Kauto Star (190) 10st13lbs round Kempton.

I still think Arkle was superior no doubt in my mind but the 212 rating? Load of rubbish and all down to the stupid handicap system at the time.

RE: Sprinter Sacre. No chance he'll be kept at 2 miles his owners have already said they are keen to step him up in trip and next years King George is most likely going to be his target if he stays......which he will :0) Way too good not to be having at least a look
 
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Tanlic...you have it all wrong about Arkle's rating and I might add he was actually higher than 212 at one stage and was only given that as a final rating when he lost his final race albeit due to a cracked pedal bone.

He raced against Mill House,Pas Seul,Buonna Notte,Flying Wild,Stalbridge Colonist,What A Myth,Woodland Venture,Dormant,Vultrix,Freddie,Caduval, etc.....4 Cheltenham Gold Cup winners,Hennessy Gold Cup and Whitbread Gold Cup winners,and a couple of horses who carried top weight in Grand Nationals AND he was conceding lumps of weight to them all !!

I might add that when those particular horses ran in races he wasn't running in they actually carried top weight themselves !!

Vultrix won the SGB Chase at Ascot in 1965 carrying 12 stones, and the following year Arkle carried 12st 7lbs and gave him 2 and a half stone and beat him,in the same race, with mocking ease by 15 lengths and Ryan Price called him a phenomenon then saying he had never seen his like before and would never see his like again !

Kauto Star would not be in the same parish....he had a couple of excellent performances out of all his career wins,though was beaten,fell and pulled up twice,hardly performances of a "true Great",and whether anyone likes it or not the FACTS are he was inferior to Denman,beaten fair and square 3 times out of the 4 they met, and everyone knows Denman was never the same horse for the 2009 Gold Cup otherwise as reigning Champion he would never have started at 7/1 with Nicholls remarking after the race how well he had run to be second considering he was "nowhere near the same horse" as the previously unbeaten ,over fences ,Denman had been !

Now Timeform can not have double standards here ,as they kept Flyingbolt's rating at 210 even though he returned from brucellosis, and was never the same horse being beaten time and time again, so why rate Denman on his later performances and not on the basis of his earlier form likewise ??

We agree on Sprinter Sacre for sure...a far superior 6 year old already than Kauto Star was,whilst Paul Nicholls would never agree that Azertyuiop was better than the Master Minded of 2008/2009 !!
 
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I think Master Minded at his best was an absolute beast.

I don't know whether Moscow Flyer would have beaten him.

But the Irish horse was greater, as MM only had a handful of stratospheric performances.....Moscow Flyer had loads of excellent performances.

What's more, Moscow Flyer beat brilliant horses. Master Minded beat good horses easily.
 
Agreed, Bar the Bull...though Flyingbolt would have dealt with both of them.....as for Sprinter Sacre...well he could just be the best since Flyingbolt ,and ,Barry Geraghty has already said he is the best he has sat on !
 
Those who suggest 'modern' horses are faster and better conditioned need to be reminded that Arkle still holds the 3 mile track record at Sandown, despite carrying 12-7.
 
Spot on Grey....what a horse.... and the 27th December 1966 was the most tragic day of my horse racing life....and many others too !
 
Grey said:
Those who suggest 'modern' horses are faster and better conditioned need to be reminded that Arkle still holds the 3 mile track record at Sandown, despite carrying 12-7.
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When did Sandown last hold a race over 3m for Grade 1 horses? A couple of replacement King Georges on Winter ground? The year of foot and mouth? And before then?

Arkle has enough genuine achievements to be lauded for without the need to resort to track records, which are usually dependent on race day conditions than ability.

After all, would anyone suggest that Invisible Man is a better horse over Ascot's straight mile than Frankel?
 
DJ.....usually I would agree with such a comment,however,in Arkle's case that particular performance had to be seen to be believed AND he was conceding 16 pounds to the greatest English steeplechaser ever,Mill House,and beat him out of sight !
 
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