Cant agree. It was the way he dominated and outjumped everything and just about every fence which is so rare to see. It was the sheer manner of that rather than the finish, but obviously contributed to the massive win. He simply broke the other runners in a way you just dont see very often, if at all
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ArkleSupreme
Guest
HawkWing has certainly made a valid point and Kauto Star was hardly impressive in his Gold Cup win of 2007 and L'Ami ran him a close half length at Newbury whilst he was all out to win quite a few of his races in his career.
Contrast that with the leisurely strolls of Arkles and Mill House's wins in 1963/4 and 5 aged 6,7 and 8 and they both remain streets ahead of him.
Be honest,clivex,assuming you were around then,or anyone else who was please feel free to chip in.....where would Kauto Star have finished in the 1964 and 1965 Gold Cups aged 7 and 8...just think about his Gold Cups at the same age before you answer.
I will say categorically that in 1964 he would have been fighting out 3rd place with Pas Seul fully 20 lengths behind the runner-up Mill House,whilst in 1965 he would have been a similar distance behind Mill House also...and what's more if Denman had contested the same races,Kauto Star would have been behind him also !
Anyone wishing to disagree on that should take a very close look at all 4 Gold Cups in question...1964,1965,2007,2008
Contrast that with the leisurely strolls of Arkles and Mill House's wins in 1963/4 and 5 aged 6,7 and 8 and they both remain streets ahead of him.
Be honest,clivex,assuming you were around then,or anyone else who was please feel free to chip in.....where would Kauto Star have finished in the 1964 and 1965 Gold Cups aged 7 and 8...just think about his Gold Cups at the same age before you answer.
I will say categorically that in 1964 he would have been fighting out 3rd place with Pas Seul fully 20 lengths behind the runner-up Mill House,whilst in 1965 he would have been a similar distance behind Mill House also...and what's more if Denman had contested the same races,Kauto Star would have been behind him also !
Anyone wishing to disagree on that should take a very close look at all 4 Gold Cups in question...1964,1965,2007,2008
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edgt
Senior Jockey
I saw a full recording of the 64 Gold Cup probably on Cheltenham DVD a few yrs ago.
I could not get over how much Arkle pulled the arms out of P Taaffe on the 1st circuit and still had the power and energy to pull away from Mill House.
I agree with Clivex on Kauto Kempton performances: how he could plough through a fence late on in a race and not lose stride or momentum was something unique.
As I posted elsewhere Mick Fitz in his book is adament that you need a true 3 miler to see out the KG owing to the pace the race is run at.
The likes of The Mighty Mac and Beau Ranger/ Dessie ran the first half mile in sub 46 secs; Breeders Cup Classic territory; in a 3 mile chase!
Tanlic : I was always under the impression that D Nicholson rode Mill House in Gallagher Chase 65 ; tks for giving Mill House race history by the way.
I could not get over how much Arkle pulled the arms out of P Taaffe on the 1st circuit and still had the power and energy to pull away from Mill House.
I agree with Clivex on Kauto Kempton performances: how he could plough through a fence late on in a race and not lose stride or momentum was something unique.
As I posted elsewhere Mick Fitz in his book is adament that you need a true 3 miler to see out the KG owing to the pace the race is run at.
The likes of The Mighty Mac and Beau Ranger/ Dessie ran the first half mile in sub 46 secs; Breeders Cup Classic territory; in a 3 mile chase!
Tanlic : I was always under the impression that D Nicholson rode Mill House in Gallagher Chase 65 ; tks for giving Mill House race history by the way.
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ArkleSupreme
Guest
edgt....what are your views on my comments about Mill House v Kauto Star....it really is an insult to The Big Horse that anyone might suggest Kauto Star was superior !
How would you assess the results of those 60s Gold Cups had the Nicholls pair been running too ?
How would you assess the results of those 60s Gold Cups had the Nicholls pair been running too ?
Yeah. I don't mean to crab Kauto Star. Prefer him to Denman and have him on a par with Desert Orchid. I think that horses like Nacarat made sure that there was a strong pace which burnt off most apart from Kauto Star who was brave enough to stay closer to the pace. Leader falls away, non-stayers dont progress, Kauto wins by exaggerated distance.
Im not making any claims on where he stands versus Arkle. The one thing that I dont like is the supposed big whoop that Arkle gave Stalbridge Colonist 35lbs who was then beaten a neck in the Gold Cup in 1967. As if this is conclusive proof. I don't think it would be neccessarily beyond Kauto Star to give The Giant Bolster the full range of the handicap in the right circumstances. It wouldn't mean that anyone was right or wrong.
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ArkleSupreme
Guest
HawkWing...you are sadly misguided there....Stalbridge Colonist was a far better horse than The Giant Bolster.... L'Ami or Turpin Green for that matter and would have been capable of giving Kauto Star a decent race at level weights let alone receiving 35lbs where he would have trounced Kauto Star without trace !
edgt
Senior Jockey
My lifetime racing began in 1975, Comedy Of Errors Champion hurdle which sums up my racing career to date!
Mill House and Denman have similarities imo.
Kauto Star has a special place for his Grade 1 cv from 2 to 31/4 miles over 6 or 7 seasons.
His soundness, his ability to come back after mistakes and falls that would have finished lesser horses.
I hoard racecards, mugs,losing betting dockets etc of significance and have a 20 Euro docket on Kauto from Punchestown 2011 as I honestly thought that was his final race.
His Betfair and KG wins last season are up there with Lazarus as "they dont come back"
Mill House and Fulke Walwyn remind me of Matt Dawson and Minting
1886 2000Gns Matt thought his horse was unbeatable, but he was by Ormonde.
Matt took to the bed.Ormonde won a triple crown and remained unbeaten.
Mill House and Denman have similarities imo.
Kauto Star has a special place for his Grade 1 cv from 2 to 31/4 miles over 6 or 7 seasons.
His soundness, his ability to come back after mistakes and falls that would have finished lesser horses.
I hoard racecards, mugs,losing betting dockets etc of significance and have a 20 Euro docket on Kauto from Punchestown 2011 as I honestly thought that was his final race.
His Betfair and KG wins last season are up there with Lazarus as "they dont come back"
Mill House and Fulke Walwyn remind me of Matt Dawson and Minting
1886 2000Gns Matt thought his horse was unbeatable, but he was by Ormonde.
Matt took to the bed.Ormonde won a triple crown and remained unbeaten.
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ArkleSupreme
Guest
clivex...sorry but Kauto Star could never cut the mustard at conceding weight as proven when even Monets Garden beat him in receipt of merely a stone which is why his connections kept him away from handicaps thereafter...even though he was routinely entered for the Betfred Gold Cup Chase !
He was certainly no Denman and Denman proved it 3 times out of their 4 meetings and it would have been all 4 but for Denman not returning as the same horse he had been previous to his problems.
Surely even the most die-hard Kauto Star fan can see that ??
He was certainly no Denman and Denman proved it 3 times out of their 4 meetings and it would have been all 4 but for Denman not returning as the same horse he had been previous to his problems.
Surely even the most die-hard Kauto Star fan can see that ??
gigilo
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- May 5, 2011
- Messages
- 9,796
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
I was actually answering someone else and your post popped in between.
Kauto Star wins the King George in a hack canter by 36 lengths but we turn back the clock and Mill House is 20 lengths ahead of him and 30 lengths ahead of him is the Mighty Arkle?
So Kauto Star one of the greatest Steeple chasers of all time juts got beat by a total of 50 lengths at level weights.
Have you actually ever studied Arkle's race records and these magical achievements that no other horse could ever do?
Arkle Carried 12 stone in the Leopardstown Chase in 1964 giving the second 2 1/2 stone beating him by 12 lengths. The second Graeatrakes was trained by some permit holder in the backwoods of Ireland.
The next year he faced Scottish Memories again giving him 2 1/2 stone. Scottish memories had won 7 races from 30 and was an 11 year old when he ran in the 1965 race and Arkle beat him by a hard fought length.
The following year it was the turn of JP Sullivan's Height Of Fashion who had won 1 race form 11 that season. Arkle gave her 3 stone and beat her a neck
Surely no horse could equal these feats? Well as we know Flyingbolt did.
What people decided to forget is a year later Fort Leney did exactly the same thing as Arkle had done.
He gave 3 stone all but 3lbs to the consistent Talbot who had won or was placed in 11 of his 14 races. Fort Leney slaughterd him beating him 12 lengths.
The following Year Fort Leney won the race again giving a thrashing to Greek Vulcan, giving him 2 stone plus he won in a common canter.
My point is that is the way it was back then. These were plodders taking on Dreapers speed horses and it is a total exaggeration of just what Arkle and co were achieving.
Arkle most certainly wouldn't have given Fort Leney a 20 length beating on that evidence so what on earth makes you think he'd have beaten Kauto Star out of sight in a King George?
Your telling us Mill House would have stuffed Kauto and we know Arkle could have beaten Mill House by anywhere between 10 and 30 lengths.
I'd love to have seen the time of that race Arkle would have knocked about 50 seconds off the track record.
Every thought about a reality check:lol:
It's all good fun
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ArkleSupreme
Guest
Tanlic..it seems you are the one who needs a reality check here !
I am still waiting for YOUR answer as to where Kauto Star would have finished as a 7 year old had he run in the 1964 Gold Cup or 8 year old in the 1965 Gold Cup ?
It can of course be taken as read that Denman would have been in front of him in both races had he lined up also !
I am waiting with baited breath for your answers ..whilst those who may say Kauto Star was never trounced by anyone need to remember he actually pulled up in two races and if he had carried on running he would have finished a parish behind in each...let alone the tonkings handed out to him in the 2008 and 2011 Gold Cups too !
A horse with a career record of just 2 wins from 7 Cheltenham Festival appearances is not a true great for me...though granted he achieved fame for his 5 King George wins.
I am still waiting for YOUR answer as to where Kauto Star would have finished as a 7 year old had he run in the 1964 Gold Cup or 8 year old in the 1965 Gold Cup ?
It can of course be taken as read that Denman would have been in front of him in both races had he lined up also !
I am waiting with baited breath for your answers ..whilst those who may say Kauto Star was never trounced by anyone need to remember he actually pulled up in two races and if he had carried on running he would have finished a parish behind in each...let alone the tonkings handed out to him in the 2008 and 2011 Gold Cups too !
A horse with a career record of just 2 wins from 7 Cheltenham Festival appearances is not a true great for me...though granted he achieved fame for his 5 King George wins.
Desert Orchid and Kauto Star were not true greats like Best Mate.
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Bar the Bull
At the Start
It is like saying that Istabraq was no good, as he was beaten by Limestone Lad.
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ArkleSupreme
Guest
Limestone Lad was a tremendous stayer,however.
Istabraq remains the best ever 2 mile hurdler for me and only the foot and mouth outbreak in 2001 prevented him from winning an unprecedented fourth Champion Hurdle !
Not many racehorses in history have won 3 or more Gold Cups or Champion Hurdles ....alas Kauto Star was not good enough to join that particular group !
Istabraq remains the best ever 2 mile hurdler for me and only the foot and mouth outbreak in 2001 prevented him from winning an unprecedented fourth Champion Hurdle !
Not many racehorses in history have won 3 or more Gold Cups or Champion Hurdles ....alas Kauto Star was not good enough to join that particular group !
Len Madeiros
Rookie
I'd say Best Mate was a great because he never finished out of the two in 22 races, mainly. But I wouldn't say he beat a great deal, as there wasn't a depth of quality in the steeplechasing ranks ten years ago. I think he suffered from not having a natural rival/ yardstick against which he could be measured - unlike Kauto Star and Arkle.
Denman, for me, doesn't fit into the category of a great because he lacked Dessie, Kauto and Arkle's versatility. He loved Cheltenham and Newbury (both left-handed tracks), but I think he should have tried at least one KG to assess his wider ability. His GC record after his heart problems doesn't stand up to great scrutiny, either, ie his two losses were to horses that won't be remembered as great GC winners, and in all likelihood won't win another one.
Kauto and Dessie won everywhere and over a variety of distances, so are rightly lauded as greats. And they did it until the age of 12.
Arkle, having lost to Mill House the first time, beat him by ever increasing margins after the 1964 GC. And thanks for the insight that MH was never the same after the '64 Whitbread conceding three stone to Dormant - I had always been led to believe that Arkle broke his heart at Cheltenham in '64. If Mill House was indeed at his peak in that same race - and he was England's greatest ever chaser - then Arkle was a proper great. Well, the greatest, obviously.
But how good was Flyingbolt? Suppose we'll have to take Pat Taafe's word for it, that Arkle would have beaten him over three miles, but coming to his peak in the 65/66 season, he could have improved, possibly, to surpass Arkle. The same incredible handicap performances as Arkle and true versatilty in one season, too: a Champion Hurdle, Champion Chase and an Irish National! Unheard of. The 1967 Gold Cup was the greatest Gold Cup that never was, sadly
Denman, for me, doesn't fit into the category of a great because he lacked Dessie, Kauto and Arkle's versatility. He loved Cheltenham and Newbury (both left-handed tracks), but I think he should have tried at least one KG to assess his wider ability. His GC record after his heart problems doesn't stand up to great scrutiny, either, ie his two losses were to horses that won't be remembered as great GC winners, and in all likelihood won't win another one.
Kauto and Dessie won everywhere and over a variety of distances, so are rightly lauded as greats. And they did it until the age of 12.
Arkle, having lost to Mill House the first time, beat him by ever increasing margins after the 1964 GC. And thanks for the insight that MH was never the same after the '64 Whitbread conceding three stone to Dormant - I had always been led to believe that Arkle broke his heart at Cheltenham in '64. If Mill House was indeed at his peak in that same race - and he was England's greatest ever chaser - then Arkle was a proper great. Well, the greatest, obviously.
But how good was Flyingbolt? Suppose we'll have to take Pat Taafe's word for it, that Arkle would have beaten him over three miles, but coming to his peak in the 65/66 season, he could have improved, possibly, to surpass Arkle. The same incredible handicap performances as Arkle and true versatilty in one season, too: a Champion Hurdle, Champion Chase and an Irish National! Unheard of. The 1967 Gold Cup was the greatest Gold Cup that never was, sadly
EC1
On a break
which would suggest you are saying Best mate was good enough to win 3 ..so does that mean Best Mate was better in your opinion than KS?
i'm not understanding "better than"..its either rating based "better than"..or achievement based "better than"
on achievements it could be argued that 5 KG's trumps 3 GC's
Bar the Bull
At the Start
Whether 5KG is better than 3GC.....
I think 5KG + 2GC > 1KG + 3GC
QED,
BTB
I think 5KG + 2GC > 1KG + 3GC
QED,
BTB
EC1
On a break
that equation looks ok...maybe we could build on this and use equations to work out who really is the best
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ArkleSupreme
Guest
Greetings to my neighbour Len....interesting analysis from you there though true greats do not fall as often and get pulled up in races the way both Desert Orchid and Kauto Star were, and despite their excellent King George records,the Cheltenham Gold Cup has always been the pinnacle of any chasers career and both Dessie and Kauto were beaten in it fair and square,by better horses on the day,and both could be seen to be fortuitous winners in 1989 when Ten Plus came down still in the lead,and Carvills Hill also fell when his jockey had no view of the fence concerned,whilst in 2009 everyone knows Denman was nowhere near the same horse who had trounced Kauto in 2008.
EC1..what can not be denied is that Best Mate was supreme in 3 Gold Cups with no excuses for any of the opposition and was certainly more impressive than Kauto Star was in 2007 being flogged to beat Exotic Dancer and Turpin Green.
Contrast all of those Gold Cups with how Arkle and Mill House performed in their Gold Cups from 1963 to 1966 inclusive !
A totally different league of racehorse.
Indeed,the 1967 Gold Cup "could" have been an epic also..though I can assure you Pat Taaffe would have ridden Arkle and he would have won again...Flyingbolt or no Flyingbolt !
Timeless memories.
EC1..what can not be denied is that Best Mate was supreme in 3 Gold Cups with no excuses for any of the opposition and was certainly more impressive than Kauto Star was in 2007 being flogged to beat Exotic Dancer and Turpin Green.
Contrast all of those Gold Cups with how Arkle and Mill House performed in their Gold Cups from 1963 to 1966 inclusive !
A totally different league of racehorse.
Indeed,the 1967 Gold Cup "could" have been an epic also..though I can assure you Pat Taaffe would have ridden Arkle and he would have won again...Flyingbolt or no Flyingbolt !
Timeless memories.
Len Madeiros
Rookie
Hello again, my neighbour ArkleSupreme.
Denman fell a few times, too, and was clearly never the same horse post-2008 GC. Which was a great shame as the nickname 'The Tank' could not have suited a horse better up until that race. I truly believed we witnessed something very special in the 2008 GC, and it just looked the start of a fabulous career that could only get better.
Kauto's 2009 GC win was his best, obviously, and take Denman (13 lengths back)out of the race, and he's won a GC by 20 lengths - his second one. I would say that was a better performance than Best Mate's 2003 win.
Who knows how good Flyingbolt could have been, but imagine having two horses in the same stable that good. Nicholls could have only dreamt of that.
Denman fell a few times, too, and was clearly never the same horse post-2008 GC. Which was a great shame as the nickname 'The Tank' could not have suited a horse better up until that race. I truly believed we witnessed something very special in the 2008 GC, and it just looked the start of a fabulous career that could only get better.
Kauto's 2009 GC win was his best, obviously, and take Denman (13 lengths back)out of the race, and he's won a GC by 20 lengths - his second one. I would say that was a better performance than Best Mate's 2003 win.
Who knows how good Flyingbolt could have been, but imagine having two horses in the same stable that good. Nicholls could have only dreamt of that.
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ArkleSupreme
Guest
Misfortune in health cost Denman very much the same way it cost Flyingbolt,though the difference is Denman had proven to be superior to Kauto Star before his health problems and there was firm talk he would try and do a Golden Miller the following year and go for a Gold Cup / Grand National double,whereas Flyingbolt was certainly not even the equal of Arkle !
Denman was unbeaten over fences just as Flyingbolt was before their health problems...what I have difficulty with is that Timeform lowered Denman's rating including his later races in his final assessment,yet they never did the same with Flyingbolt.
Either a horse is judged on his very best form only,or he is judged on his entire career..whether there are any health issues or not.
You can't have it both ways !
Denman was unbeaten over fences just as Flyingbolt was before their health problems...what I have difficulty with is that Timeform lowered Denman's rating including his later races in his final assessment,yet they never did the same with Flyingbolt.
Either a horse is judged on his very best form only,or he is judged on his entire career..whether there are any health issues or not.
You can't have it both ways !
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