Some of the younger folk tend to believe horses have progressed since the 60s at a similar rate to human athletes and doubt whether they would be competitive against horses trained using modern methods. I don't think anyone was doing speed ratings at the time, but the fact he beat a track record by 17 seconds which still stands today suggests to me that Arkle could run fast.
Some of the younger folk tend to believe horses have progressed since the 60s at a similar rate to human athletes and doubt whether they would be competitive against horses trained using modern methods. I don't think anyone was doing speed ratings at the time, but the fact he beat a track record by 17 seconds which still stands today suggests to me that Arkle could run fast.
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ArkleSupreme
Guest
"Fast" is an understatement,Grey.....so many have said it before... and he even won a NH Flat race over 1mile 6 furlongs,whilst Brough Scott stated he had never seen a horse approaching the final fence at Cheltenham at such speed and ping it the way Arkle did in the Honeybourne Novices Chase and knew from that moment he was witnessing something "special" !
edgt
Senior Jockey
It was a proper flat maiden ridden by T P Burns, the race Glam Gerry won this year at Navan. There were many Aussie flat riders in Ireland at the time who considered Himself to have enough speed for a Melbourne Cup.
Mark Hely Hutchinson rode him to defeat in 2 or 3 bumpers; and dined out for years on the strength of being the only jockey not to win on Arkle; trust a banker to do such a thing without a shred of embarrassment!
Mark Hely Hutchinson rode him to defeat in 2 or 3 bumpers; and dined out for years on the strength of being the only jockey not to win on Arkle; trust a banker to do such a thing without a shred of embarrassment!
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ArkleSupreme
Guest
Yes Edgt..I read about Mark Hely Hutchinson's exploits on him in Ivor Herbert's book Arkle,The Full Story Of The Champion ,which I still have in my possession.
I actually applied to BBC Mastermind to answer questions about the life and career of Arkle, though sadly it wasn't acceptable as subject matter !!
I was short-listed but didn't make it on to the programme to answer questions about Grand Nationals since 1960 or Derbys since 1960 !
I actually applied to BBC Mastermind to answer questions about the life and career of Arkle, though sadly it wasn't acceptable as subject matter !!
I was short-listed but didn't make it on to the programme to answer questions about Grand Nationals since 1960 or Derbys since 1960 !
The Gainsborough used to be a class affair over 3 miles in the late 1980s early 1990s and was won by Dessie carrying big weights .
To the eye Arkle gallops up the Sandown hill a good deal more energetically under 12-7 in the Whitbread ( on You Tube) than most horses nowadays !
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ArkleSupreme
Guest
Agreed,Ardross, and Kauto Star was declared for what was formerly the Whitbread Gold Cup, and now the Betfred Gold Cup Chase, a few years and was due to carry 11st 10lbs in it and ,as expected ,his connections knew his limitations and withdrew him from the task each year !
I might add he would have been giving less than 2 stone away to far inferior horses than Arkle had to face in such handicaps !
We were lucky to witness such a phenomenon !
I might add he would have been giving less than 2 stone away to far inferior horses than Arkle had to face in such handicaps !
We were lucky to witness such a phenomenon !
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edgt
Senior Jockey
Arkle Appreciation Club may not have too many members down Mullingar way, the only course where he was unplaced!
Then again you cannot please everyone.
Then again you cannot please everyone.
Thats bollocks about kauto being withdrawn from the betfred because of limitations. Come off it
Or shouldni say. Come of it !!!
As for arkle "stopping the nation" , there was not much else on the box at that time. Mick mcmanus and jakki pallo stopped the nation too
Well chief and azerti would surely nit have beaten master minded at his very best. The way he skipped round cheltenham was extraordinary and nothing they produced was visually close.
Or shouldni say. Come of it !!!
As for arkle "stopping the nation" , there was not much else on the box at that time. Mick mcmanus and jakki pallo stopped the nation too
Well chief and azerti would surely nit have beaten master minded at his very best. The way he skipped round cheltenham was extraordinary and nothing they produced was visually close.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
That's because they were running against far superior animals.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
His level of form during his career was a tad below Azertyuiop and Well Chief. He was very impressive in his first Champion Chase but the form of that was a tad overrated.
the form cannot be determined because it was about the easiest victory anyone has seen in a championship race. Its an open question. Pointless doing a weights and measures analysis of that
Azerty came home alone when mf fell that time, but did he skip round like mm? not at all..thats the point. he wasnt in that class
Azerty came home alone when mf fell that time, but did he skip round like mm? not at all..thats the point. he wasnt in that class
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
He jumped as well as anything I've seen round Cheltenham in his Arkle. The not in his class comment makes you look a berk. There wasn't much in it but I'd favour all the big three of the time over what came just after.
Well perhaps connections are "berks" too because im pretty sure their comments would be along same lines.. (might be wrong)
If you think azerty was as good a traveller and jumper as MM ...i would stick to flat racing...which some would say is for real berks
If you think azerty was as good a traveller and jumper as MM ...i would stick to flat racing...which some would say is for real berks
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
The greatest ever English Steeplechaser? Get a grip man.
Arkle's 212 is laughable do you really believe he was stones better than every chaser since? It is from that 212 that Mill House's 191 was in relation to.
Kauto Star was rated 193 without Arkle boosting him. There's been dozens as good as Mill House.
Mill House was a schoolyard bully and very good against inferior animals. When he won his Gold Cup he was beating Tom Dreaper's Fortria who was an 11 year old at the time and lost the speed that won him races like the QMCC twice and the Makeson Gold Cup. Most reckoned he never got the Cheltenham trip and he was beaten the year before by Mandarin when he led for along time before his stamina gave way.
Later in life when he met good horses like What A Myth he never looked so great when the Ryan Price horse at the age of 10 ran him to a neck off levels and the Laird getting only a pound beat him. Sure he had back problems during his career but until Arkle came on the scene there was nothing but old crocks around to take on Mill House.
He was good in his day but the greatest English chasers of all time? no way.
The day Arkle won the Gallacher Gold Cup he was awesome no doubting it, but it was Mill House who previously held the Sandown record.
I think it was when he went off at 1/7 to beat Out and About who was a pretty ordinary chaser of Ryan Prices. Mill House basically hacked round and the time he beat was set in a race for untried 24 year old brood mares:lol: The press made a huge thing about it but really it was no big deal as Arkle was just as awesome in his other races around that time and never knocked 17 seconds of any of those records.
Lets not forget Mill House ran well below his best when he failed to give 10 lbs to Rondetto who finished 4 lengths in front of him that day.
It's one thing being an Arkle fan, I loved the horse to bits we all did at the time but one should take a reality check and remember that there was no centralized handicapping sytem at the time and the handicapper would say one thing one day and change his mind a week later to be able to fit horses in.......it really was a shocking mess and the 212 today looks just plain stupid
Look at what it actually means. Forget the trip but if Arkle were alive and on Sunday the race were a handicap he'd have to give Sprinter Sacre 43lbs (3st1lb) :blink:
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2005
- Messages
- 25,024
My gut instinct was to reply immediately saying 'done to death' but I decided to read through the thread. Obviously Lazarus only rates 168 next to Arkle's 212.
I'm just too young (57) to have been able to appreciate Arkle but I do remember my father taking me all the way over on foot to his father's house to watch Arkle on TV (we didn't have either a TV or a car - get the violins out) and I remember vividly the stunned silence in the house when Dormant beat him. Granda was a quiet guy but quick to blame anyone for anything - my father took after him - any loser was usually followed by incessant mutterings about the horse or jockey being a 'suffering duffer' (Granda and Daddy never swore) but not this day. Granda just gazed into the fire, spitting imaginary specks of pipe tobacco into the flames.
Me? I reckon Arkle would give Kauto and Dessie a stone and a beating.
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A
ArkleSupreme
Guest
Tanlic...Fulke Walwyn R.I.P would tell you that Mill House was the greatest English chaser ever and he actually got to ride Golden Miller also and heralded Mill House his superior when both were aged 6 and 7 and there has NEVER been a horse alive who could have beaten Arkle or run him to 5 lengths in the greatest Gold Cup ever run as Mill House did and if the likes of Desert Orchid and Kauto Star had been in that same 1964 Gold Cup,they would have been fighting out third place with Pas Seul who was 20 lengths behind "the big two" !
Unfortunately,Mill House wasn't the same horse after his courageous attempt to concede THREE STONES to Dormant in the 1964 Whitbread Gold Cup Chase, barely a month or so after his epic Gold Cup defeat, and you can not tell me that the 6,7 and 8 year old Kauto Star would have got anywhere near the 6,7 and 8 year old Mill House.
BTW... Fortria actually won an Irish National carrying top weight of 12 stone so please don't tell me he didn't stay the Gold Cup trip,whilst several 11 year olds and even older have won the Gold Cup !
Timeform really need to decide on how they FINALLY rate a horse....
Do they rate them on their entire career or when they are at their very best.....either way the following order would apply as far as I am concerned....
ARKLE
FLYINGBOLT
MILL HOUSE
GOLDEN MILLER
COTTAGE RAKE
EASTER HERO
PRINCE REGENT
DENMAN
then choose between the likes of Desert Orchid,Best Mate,Kauto Star etc
We are the same age Desert Orchid..both members of the Heinz 57 club though my 8 years older brother had me interested in racing from age 5 when the BBC showed their first ever Grand National and I remember the 27th Dec 1966 and being in a state of shock at what happened..though even with a cracked pedal bone he almost won his final race still aged 9 and was beaten half a length by Dormant AND he was conceding 21lbs in weight too !
Courageous to the end and the likes of which we have never seen since !!
Unfortunately,Mill House wasn't the same horse after his courageous attempt to concede THREE STONES to Dormant in the 1964 Whitbread Gold Cup Chase, barely a month or so after his epic Gold Cup defeat, and you can not tell me that the 6,7 and 8 year old Kauto Star would have got anywhere near the 6,7 and 8 year old Mill House.
BTW... Fortria actually won an Irish National carrying top weight of 12 stone so please don't tell me he didn't stay the Gold Cup trip,whilst several 11 year olds and even older have won the Gold Cup !
Timeform really need to decide on how they FINALLY rate a horse....
Do they rate them on their entire career or when they are at their very best.....either way the following order would apply as far as I am concerned....
ARKLE
FLYINGBOLT
MILL HOUSE
GOLDEN MILLER
COTTAGE RAKE
EASTER HERO
PRINCE REGENT
DENMAN
then choose between the likes of Desert Orchid,Best Mate,Kauto Star etc
We are the same age Desert Orchid..both members of the Heinz 57 club though my 8 years older brother had me interested in racing from age 5 when the BBC showed their first ever Grand National and I remember the 27th Dec 1966 and being in a state of shock at what happened..though even with a cracked pedal bone he almost won his final race still aged 9 and was beaten half a length by Dormant AND he was conceding 21lbs in weight too !
Courageous to the end and the likes of which we have never seen since !!
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
If we're talking Cheltenham here Dessie I reckon neither Kauto Star or Dessie would have stood a chance against Arkle. To be honest Kauto never really stayed the trip and even when he won his Gold Cup he struggled with the final climb to the line unlike Arkle who flew up the thing like it didn't exist.
7lbs? 14lbs? even 20lbs? I think Arkle would have still done them but round Kempton give a Stone to Kauto Star at his very best ? I have my doubts.
If he couldn't give 35lbs to Stalbridge Collonist who wasn't the quickest chaser imaginable I'm pretty sure he would have struggled to give a stone to a 5 times winner of the King George winner in Kauto Star round his fav track.
14 lbs is one helluva lot to be thinking of giving a horse who won the race in a hack canter by a distance.
7lbs? 14lbs? even 20lbs? I think Arkle would have still done them but round Kempton give a Stone to Kauto Star at his very best ? I have my doubts.
If he couldn't give 35lbs to Stalbridge Collonist who wasn't the quickest chaser imaginable I'm pretty sure he would have struggled to give a stone to a 5 times winner of the King George winner in Kauto Star round his fav track.
14 lbs is one helluva lot to be thinking of giving a horse who won the race in a hack canter by a distance.
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ArkleSupreme
Guest
Tanlic...hang on a minute...as Pat Taaffe stated Arkle,making his seasonal debut, was unfit when he raced in the 1966 Hennessy Gold Cup chase as training had been held up by severe weather in Ireland whilst Stalbridge Colonist was fit and had won his previous SEVEN successive chases and had already run that season....even then Arkle failed by barely half a length and Stan Mellor the jockey of Stalbridge said he cheated Pat Taaffe by being directly behind him approaching the last so Pat would not be aware he was pouncing until it was too late !!
Irrespective of that,Arkle still finished ahead of future Gold Cup winner,What A Myth,to whom he was conceding THREE STONES,and Stalbridge Colonist went on to finish second beaten less than a length in the following Cheltenham Gold Cup !!!
Arkle remains on a different planet and would have thrashed Kauto Star at level weights anywhere you wish to mention !
Irrespective of that,Arkle still finished ahead of future Gold Cup winner,What A Myth,to whom he was conceding THREE STONES,and Stalbridge Colonist went on to finish second beaten less than a length in the following Cheltenham Gold Cup !!!
Arkle remains on a different planet and would have thrashed Kauto Star at level weights anywhere you wish to mention !
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
1960-61
Naas Sallins Hurdle 1 M 4 F T.Taaffe 7.1 4th
Naas Obertown Hurdle 2 M 1 F P.Taaffe 2.1 1st
Punchestown Martin Mahoney Champion Novice Hurdle 2 M D.Dick Fell
1961-62
Newbury Blewbury Hurdle 2 M R.Harrison 10.1 Fell
Sandown Blackhills Hurdle 2 M R.Harrison 25.1 unpl
Wincanton Castle Cary hurdle 2 M R.Harrison 3.1 1st
Hurst Park New Century Hurdle 2 M R.Harrison 2.1 Fav Fell
Cheltenham Ledbury H'Cap Chase 3 M T.Brookshaw 6.1 1 st
1962-63
Sandown Walton Green H'Cap Chase 3M G.W.Robinson 7/2 1st
Cottage Rake H'Cap Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 4/5 Fav 2nd
Sandown H'Cap Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 7/4 Fav 1st
Cheltenham Gold Cup 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 7/2 Fav 1st
Newbury Mandarin Chase 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 5/6 Fav 1st
1963-64
Hennessey Gold Cup 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 15/8 Fav 1st
Kempton King George VI Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 2/7 Fav 1st
Sandown Gainsborough Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 1/7 Fav 1st
Cheltenham Gold Cup 3 M 2 f G.W.Robinson 8/13 Fav 2nd
Sandown Whitbread Gold Cup 3 M 5 F G.W.Robinson 6/4 Fav 2nd
1964-65
Hennessey Gold Cup 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 13/8 4th
Newbury Manderin Chase 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 6/4 1st
Gainsborough Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 8/13 1st
Cheltenham Gold Cup 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 0/30 2nd
1965/66
Ascot Frogmore Chase 2 M G.W.Robinson 4.1 2nd
Sandown Autumn Trial Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 8/100 1st
Sandown Gallagher Gold Cup 3 M G.W.Robinson 7/2 3rd
N.H.Centenary Cup 3 M 1 F G.W.Robinson 1/6 Fav 1st
1966-67
Cheltenham Massey Ferguson Gold Cup 2 M 5 F G.W.Robinson 0/8 unpl
Doncaster Great Yorkshire Chase 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 8.1 3rd
Gainsborough Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 6/5 Fav 1st
Cheltenham Gold Cup 3 M 2 F D.Nicholson 2.1 Fav Fell
Sandown Whitbread Gold Cup 3 M 5 F D.Nicholson 9/2 Fav 1st
1967-68
Sandown Gainsborough Chase 3 M D.Nicholson 11/4 2nd
Cheltenham Gold Cup 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 2.1 Fav cruising in lead Fell
Sandown Whitbread Gold Cup 3 M 5 F G.W.Robinson 13/2 Fav close up u/r
1968-69
Clun Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 1/4 Fav in lead Fell
Somerset Chase 3 M 1 F G.W.Robinson 8/13 Fav 1st
Retiredr
Naas Sallins Hurdle 1 M 4 F T.Taaffe 7.1 4th
Naas Obertown Hurdle 2 M 1 F P.Taaffe 2.1 1st
Punchestown Martin Mahoney Champion Novice Hurdle 2 M D.Dick Fell
1961-62
Newbury Blewbury Hurdle 2 M R.Harrison 10.1 Fell
Sandown Blackhills Hurdle 2 M R.Harrison 25.1 unpl
Wincanton Castle Cary hurdle 2 M R.Harrison 3.1 1st
Hurst Park New Century Hurdle 2 M R.Harrison 2.1 Fav Fell
Cheltenham Ledbury H'Cap Chase 3 M T.Brookshaw 6.1 1 st
1962-63
Sandown Walton Green H'Cap Chase 3M G.W.Robinson 7/2 1st
Cottage Rake H'Cap Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 4/5 Fav 2nd
Sandown H'Cap Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 7/4 Fav 1st
Cheltenham Gold Cup 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 7/2 Fav 1st
Newbury Mandarin Chase 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 5/6 Fav 1st
1963-64
Hennessey Gold Cup 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 15/8 Fav 1st
Kempton King George VI Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 2/7 Fav 1st
Sandown Gainsborough Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 1/7 Fav 1st
Cheltenham Gold Cup 3 M 2 f G.W.Robinson 8/13 Fav 2nd
Sandown Whitbread Gold Cup 3 M 5 F G.W.Robinson 6/4 Fav 2nd
1964-65
Hennessey Gold Cup 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 13/8 4th
Newbury Manderin Chase 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 6/4 1st
Gainsborough Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 8/13 1st
Cheltenham Gold Cup 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 0/30 2nd
1965/66
Ascot Frogmore Chase 2 M G.W.Robinson 4.1 2nd
Sandown Autumn Trial Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 8/100 1st
Sandown Gallagher Gold Cup 3 M G.W.Robinson 7/2 3rd
N.H.Centenary Cup 3 M 1 F G.W.Robinson 1/6 Fav 1st
1966-67
Cheltenham Massey Ferguson Gold Cup 2 M 5 F G.W.Robinson 0/8 unpl
Doncaster Great Yorkshire Chase 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 8.1 3rd
Gainsborough Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 6/5 Fav 1st
Cheltenham Gold Cup 3 M 2 F D.Nicholson 2.1 Fav Fell
Sandown Whitbread Gold Cup 3 M 5 F D.Nicholson 9/2 Fav 1st
1967-68
Sandown Gainsborough Chase 3 M D.Nicholson 11/4 2nd
Cheltenham Gold Cup 3 M 2 F G.W.Robinson 2.1 Fav cruising in lead Fell
Sandown Whitbread Gold Cup 3 M 5 F G.W.Robinson 13/2 Fav close up u/r
1968-69
Clun Chase 3 M G.W.Robinson 1/4 Fav in lead Fell
Somerset Chase 3 M 1 F G.W.Robinson 8/13 Fav 1st
Retiredr
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
And you say he's the greatest English steeplechase of all time............gimme peace ffs he fell so many times it's laughable
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Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2005
- Messages
- 25,024
The most refreshing thing about this thread is that the focus is being kept on the genuine greats in the debate about which might have been the best.
If the BHA paid me, I'm sure I could do what Phil Smith was unable or unwilling to do and come up with a figure for Arkle. (My gut tells me he realised he was fighting a runaway train as he headed past 200 and baled out.)
Arkle gave masses of weight to Gold Cup winners and previous/subsequent top-weighted winners of top handicaps. There's also that track record at Sandown.
The horses in training population is greater now and there's no doubt the likes of Martin Pipe, Paul Nicholls and Nicky Henderson have taken training horses to peak fitness to new levels but if we say the winners of the very top handicaps - the Hennessys and Whitbreads as they were in those days while admitting the Whitbread isn't these days - we're probably looking at horses rated around a modern equivalent of 165. This isn't forgetting that Denman and others were rated 170 or more when they ran. To win such a race you need to be at least 12lbs well in. Let's be conservative and say 10lbs. Arkle gave horses of that ilk 35lbs and a beating, so Arkle was - conservatively - 165+10+35 = 210 pus whatever distance he beat them plus whatever he had in hand. Denman was about 184 - about the same as Burrough Hill Lad and See More Business at their absolute best. Desert Orchid was about 190, maybe a bit more, at Kempton in his best King George and maybe 195 in the Irish National. Kauto Star's best King George was about the same as Dessie's best.
And to think that Best Mate was hailed Arkle's equal when he never ran better than 178...
If the BHA paid me, I'm sure I could do what Phil Smith was unable or unwilling to do and come up with a figure for Arkle. (My gut tells me he realised he was fighting a runaway train as he headed past 200 and baled out.)
Arkle gave masses of weight to Gold Cup winners and previous/subsequent top-weighted winners of top handicaps. There's also that track record at Sandown.
The horses in training population is greater now and there's no doubt the likes of Martin Pipe, Paul Nicholls and Nicky Henderson have taken training horses to peak fitness to new levels but if we say the winners of the very top handicaps - the Hennessys and Whitbreads as they were in those days while admitting the Whitbread isn't these days - we're probably looking at horses rated around a modern equivalent of 165. This isn't forgetting that Denman and others were rated 170 or more when they ran. To win such a race you need to be at least 12lbs well in. Let's be conservative and say 10lbs. Arkle gave horses of that ilk 35lbs and a beating, so Arkle was - conservatively - 165+10+35 = 210 pus whatever distance he beat them plus whatever he had in hand. Denman was about 184 - about the same as Burrough Hill Lad and See More Business at their absolute best. Desert Orchid was about 190, maybe a bit more, at Kempton in his best King George and maybe 195 in the Irish National. Kauto Star's best King George was about the same as Dessie's best.
And to think that Best Mate was hailed Arkle's equal when he never ran better than 178...
A
ArkleSupreme
Guest
Tanlic....did you actually read what I wrote ??
Are you telling me there has ever been an English steeplechaser alive who could have beaten Arkle conceding weight and run him to 5 lengths at level weights anywhere ??
Mill House was NEVER the same horse after the 1964 Whitbread Gold Cup Chase as I have already explained !
IF we are going to assess EVERY racehorse by their total career form then Flyingbolt would be far lower than his Timeform Rating also.
By all means list all of his results just as you have with Mill House.
Mill House would have slaughtered Kauto Star also and won his 1963 King George in equally emphatic style as any of Kautos wins !
Where do YOU think the 7 year old Kauto Star,who won his 2007 Gold Cup from Exotic Dancer and Turpin Green who were both within 4 lengths of him, would have finished had he been running in the 1964 Gold Cup ?
Or anyone else for that matter ?
Are you telling me there has ever been an English steeplechaser alive who could have beaten Arkle conceding weight and run him to 5 lengths at level weights anywhere ??
Mill House was NEVER the same horse after the 1964 Whitbread Gold Cup Chase as I have already explained !
IF we are going to assess EVERY racehorse by their total career form then Flyingbolt would be far lower than his Timeform Rating also.
By all means list all of his results just as you have with Mill House.
Mill House would have slaughtered Kauto Star also and won his 1963 King George in equally emphatic style as any of Kautos wins !
Where do YOU think the 7 year old Kauto Star,who won his 2007 Gold Cup from Exotic Dancer and Turpin Green who were both within 4 lengths of him, would have finished had he been running in the 1964 Gold Cup ?
Or anyone else for that matter ?
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I understand how ratings work, but, I view Kauto Star to be somewhat flattered by the way he won his King Georges (or the King Georges in which he returned his highest ratings).
Every year his main opposition was Imperial Commander, who never produced, and horses who were better than less than 3m. Racing Demon, Old Vic, Voy Por Ustedes, Nacarat and Barber Shop both traveled well before collapsing.
While he was visually stunning, I do think that the effect was exaggerated by the way those around him were shot stamina-wise. In short I dont think his King Georges took much winning.
He was never more jaw dropping for me than the first betfair.
Every year his main opposition was Imperial Commander, who never produced, and horses who were better than less than 3m. Racing Demon, Old Vic, Voy Por Ustedes, Nacarat and Barber Shop both traveled well before collapsing.
While he was visually stunning, I do think that the effect was exaggerated by the way those around him were shot stamina-wise. In short I dont think his King Georges took much winning.
He was never more jaw dropping for me than the first betfair.