Arkle Appreciation Group

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Well where would you put woodland venture ect is the scheme of things hardly going to be remembered as all time greats are they, my opinion the opposition was poor in arkles era hence was made to look better than he was
 
mayes....keep talking yourself into a hole.....you really are totally clueless about Arkle....and living in a dream world where Kauto Star is concerned !

Boy...it must really hurt you that Denman stuffed him 3 times out of their 4 meetings and how lucky you are that Denman had that debilitating heart problem...otherwise it would have been 4 from 4...anyone who knows about Horse Racing realises that would have been the outcome !
 
The highest rated gold cup since arkle denman tried but he met a on song kauto star ,not only did kauto rewrite the record book but the rule book too his following king george he won by a staggering 36 lengths breaking arkles record of 44 Christmases the king of kings kauto star a sporting sensation here at kempton he beats long run again paul nicholls all smiles ,paul you have one of the greatest if thee the not greatest of all time ...... I suppose paul and ruby and Martin pipe are living in dreamland too
 
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ARKLE 212 KAUTO STAR 191

E.O.S

Now as I have said before...this is an Arkle Appreciation Thread...by all means set up your own one about your inferior star if you wish.

Then I will set one up about his superior stablemate,Denman !
 
Good idea ArkleS.
While you are at it post all races run by your horse as Tanlic did with Mill House; then your post will have some educational value for the rest of us.
As a by the way, G W Robinson rode regularly on the flat at 9 stone so MH must have been carrying stones of lead esp in Whitbread Gold Cup, rather like L'Escargot and Tommy Carberry when btn less than 1length in Irish GN carrying 12_7 in 71
 
ArkleSupreme said:
ARKLE 212 KAUTO STAR 191

E.O.S

Now as I have said before...this is an Arkle Appreciation Thread...by all means set up your own one about your inferior star if you wish.

Then I will set one up about his superior stablemate,Denman !
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Great you put up figures 212 191 to prove your point but ignore the figures that say Kauto Star was far superior to Denman.

Denman beat Kauto but Neptune Collonges only a neck away. Kauto beat Denman 13 lengths this time Neptune Collonges finishes the same distance behind Denman.Kauto has turned the form round to the tune of 20 lengths.

Next Kauto falls Denman finishes 2nd to Imperial Commander who Kauto had beaten at Haydock.....Denman beaten by Long Run with Kauto back in 3rd but Kauto bouncs back and defeats Long Run twice of level weights.

You'll have some fookin job explaining how on earth you come up with Denman was Kauto's superior.

Over all Kauto was different class to Denam who was never asked to take on the best away from Cheltenham that was left to his much superior, winner of 5 King George's, stable companion.
 
Just to help you along the highest ever figure Denman performed to with the BHA was 182 whereas Kauto Star hit a 193 when winning the King George by a distance.

So lets be having you.

You use official figures to make one point but ignore them to make another.

Why do you think that is?
 
Tanlic..as you seem to be very computer-literate can you do us all a favour and post Arkles results over fences the same way you did with Mill House....whilst your at it..Flyingbolt's would be useful also....then later on you can add Denman and Kauto Star.

You are missing my point completely about Denman being superior to Kauto Star which he proved to be the case at their first Gold Cup meeting when there were no excuses for either horse.

Denman could have posted a higher rating than Kauto Star did had he not suffered from his debilitating heart problem and was thus unable to fulfill the obvious potential he had shown when being unbeaten over fences beforehand.

Denman still beat Kauto Star three times out of the four they met irrespective of that and when comparing both of them at their very best,Denman remains the better racehorse.

If Kauto Star had suffered from the same problem post the 2008 Gold Cup then he would never have performed anywhere near as well as he did thereafter ,and ,even then he was still beaten too many times and pulled up twice too !

Those are the facts of the matter.
 
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ArkleSupreme said:
Denman could have posted a higher rating than Kauto Star did had he not suffered from his debilitating heart problem and was thus unable to fulfill the obvious potential he had shown when being unbeaten over fences beforehand.

Denman still beat Kauto Star three times out of the four they met irrespective of that and when comparing both of them at their very best,Denman remains the better racehorse.

If Kauto Star had suffered from the same problem post the 2008 Gold Cup then he would never have performed anywhere near as well as he did thereafter ,and ,even then he was still beaten too many times and pulled up twice too !

Those are the facts of the matter.
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These are not facts.

Comparing them both at their very best leaves Denman with 11lbs to find on official ratings. That is a fact.

As Tanlic points out, you cannot be taken seriously when quoting ratings to talk up Arkle then completely ignoring them on the Denman / Kauto Star comparison.
 
See its not just me is it !!! Supreme likes to use rating when it comes to arkle but when it comes to kauto star he ignores them !!but let's be honest flying bolt was rated higher at 7 than arkles was and had 2 years on him to me flying bolt had improvement and was in fact the better horse than arkle
 
Tanlic said:
You'll have some fookin job explaining how on earth you come up with Denman was Kauto's superior.

Over all Kauto was different class to Denam who was never asked to take on the best away from Cheltenham that was left to his much superior, winner of 5 King George's, stable companion.
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I know this wasn't addressed to me but as I've mentioned many times in the past the comparison is to a large extent meaningless.

Denman proved superior to Kauto at Cheltenham and was a powerful carrier of weight, but would likely not have matched Kauto round Kempton (although I would have liked to have seen it), where Kauto was brilliant.

However neither were in Arkle's bracket. Arkle didn’t carry less than 12 stone in his last 19 races. Rated 212 in 1965/66. The most he carried was 12st 10lb in the Massey-Ferguson Gold Cup in which he was beaten a length in third. He ran 26 times over fences: won 22, 2nd 2, 3rd 2. In 1964 he beat Mill House in the Hennessy Gold Cup by 10 lengths under 12st 7lb and beat Mill House 20 lengths in the 1965 Gold Cup. Stalbridge Colonist beat him half a length in receipt of 35lb in the 1966 Hennessy Gold Cup. Six horses finished in front of him in steeplechases and five of those were in receipt of upwards of 21lb.
 
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EC1 said:
what conditions would mean that Arkle had to give so much weight though?..that seems more like a handicap race
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Indeed so, a conditions race (conditions differ in such races and are not standard) in which one horse has to concede so much might justifiably be seen as a handicap (and of course handicaps are ‘conditions’ races of sorts themselves).

In fact Arkle was so dominant that he brought about an unprecedented change of rules in his sport. In Ireland, authorities decided to use two distinct weight systems in the Irish Grand National to level the competition – one when he was racing and one when he was not. Even with this rule change Arkle still won the 1964 Irish Grand National, despite giving two and a half stone to the rest of the field with most forced out of the handicap proper.
 
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SteveM said:
Indeed so, a conditions race (conditions differ in such races and are not standard) in which one horse has to concede so much might justifiably be seen as a handicap (and of course handicaps are ‘conditions’ races of sorts themselves).

In fact Arkle was so dominant that he brought about an unprecedented change of rules in his sport. In Ireland, authorities decided to use two distinct weight systems in the Irish Grand National to level the competition – one when he was racing and one when he was not. Even with this rule change Arkle still won the 1964 Irish Grand National, despite giving two and a half stone to the rest of the field with most forced out of the handicap proper.
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mayes king kauto said:
Yes but put arkle in today scheme of things I'm certain they wouldn't of changed the weights for him in today races !!!
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What you have to undestand is that this was before the days of raising weights if the top ones came out, which had its genesis in Arkle's situation, so if there was a genuine 212 horse about today, the weights would go up automatically if it came out.

In Arkle's day, because the weights weren't raised, if he came out they'd all have to carry 9-7 (the bottom weight in those days) so it would no longer be a handicap.

Remember that some trainers are known to exploit the system by leaving in top weights to keep as many as possible out of the handicap at the bottom in order to favour a stable companion some way down the handicap.

So the change enforced by Arkle's brilliance effectively still operates today.
 
SteveM said:
I know this wasn't addressed to me but as I've mentioned many times in the past the comparison is to a large extent meaningless.

Denman proved superior to Kauto at Cheltenham and was a powerful carrier of weight, but would likely not have matched Kauto round Kempton (although I would have liked to have seen it), where Kauto was brilliant.

However neither were in Arkle's bracket. Arkle didn’t carry less than 12 stone in his last 19 races. Rated 212 in 1965/66. The most he carried was 12st 10lb in the Massey-Ferguson Gold Cup in which he was beaten a length in third. He ran 26 times over fences: won 22, 2nd 2, 3rd 2. In 1964 he beat Mill House in the Hennessy Gold Cup by 10 lengths under 12st 7lb and beat Mill House 20 lengths in the 1965 Gold Cup. Stalbridge Colonist beat him half a length in receipt of 35lb in the 1966 Hennessy Gold Cup. Six horses finished in front of him in steeplechases and five of those were in receipt of upwards of 21lb.
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I have never denied Arkle his rightful place at the top of the ratings but ask yourelf this. Of all his opponents how many won 5 King George's and 2 Gold Cups or even came close to achieving anything remotely like that.

No one on this forum knows What A Myth better than I did I backed him in ever race he ever ran in, The horse was my hero as a kid but he wasn't within a stone of Kauto Star and neither was Stalbridge Colonist.

This thread starter has Arkle beating Kauto Star 20 lengths round Kempton which is the biggest load of tripe ever written.

Kauto's performance in 2008 was breathtaking and for Arkle to have beaten him that sort of distance he'd have to have run faster than Frankel over the last mile.

To beat Kauto by 20 lengths in 2008 Arkle would need to have recorded a time of roughly 5 mins 37 seconds. When Arkle won the King George his time was 6mins 9.2 seconds . Both races were run on good ground. In 4 of his King George's Kauto did a faster time than Arkle and a couple of those were on good to soft and on good to soft again he was only 2 seconds slower than Arkle.

We can't really judge the quality of the opposition each faced but we can look at times and say if it were once Kauto did a better time that is one thing but when he did it 4 times you have to sit up and ask just how superior actually was Arkle...... I reckon superior for sure but nowhere near what the Timefor figures suggest,,,,,,not even close.

It's one thing celebrating Arkle as saying he was the greatest steeplechaser of all time very few will argue but it's another thing completely being so fanatical about it you resort to spouting complete garbage.
 
Tanlic said:
I have never denied Arkle his rightful place at the top of the ratings but ask yourelf this. Of all his opponents how many won 5 King George's and 2 Gold Cups or even came close to achieving anything remotely like that.

No one on this forum knows What A Myth better than I did I backed him in ever race he ever ran in, The horse was my hero as a kid but he wasn't within a stone of Kauto Star and neither was Stalbridge Colonist.

This thread starter has Arkle beating Kauto Star 20 lengths round Kempton which is the biggest load of tripe ever written.

Kauto's performance in 2008 was breathtaking and for Arkle to have beaten him that sort of distance he'd have to have run faster than Frankel over the last mile.

To beat Kauto by 20 lengths in 2008 Arkle would need to have recorded a time of roughly 5 mins 37 seconds. When Arkle won the King George his time was 6mins 9.2 seconds . Both races were run on good ground. In 4 of his King George's Kauto did a faster time than Arkle and a couple of those were on good to soft and on good to soft again he was only 2 seconds slower than Arkle.

We can't really judge the quality of the opposition each faced but we can look at times and say if it were once Kauto did a better time that is one thing but when he did it 4 times you have to sit up and ask just how superior actually was Arkle...... I reckon superior for sure but nowhere near what the Timefor figures suggest,,,,,,not even close.

It's one thing celebrating Arkle as saying he was the greatest steeplechaser of all time very few will argue but it's another thing completely being so fanatical about it you resort to spouting complete garbage.
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Well said Tanlic
 
its an impossible debate because we will never know because they will never run !!!all i knw is arkle would not have beaten every chaser going since 1966 and thats a fact ,they are not machines they are horses and in my opinion kauto would of beaten arkle around kempton thats for sure you could of put any horse in there in 2009 nothing would of touched kauto that day !
 
Tanlic said:
I have never denied Arkle his rightful place at the top of the ratings but ask yourelf this. Of all his opponents how many won 5 King George's and 2 Gold Cups or even came close to achieving anything remotely like that.
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Did the KG have the same prestige in those days? (IE did the very best of the rest try to win it?) It's clear that if Arkle hadn't run in his Gold Cups, we'd be hailing the winners as greats of their time.

Tanlic said:
This thread starter has Arkle beating Kauto Star 20 lengths round Kempton which is the biggest load of tripe ever written.
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Fanciful, maybe, but tripe? If people believe Kauto was 191 and Arkle 212 at their best - and Kauto's best was round Kempton whereas we can only guess if Arkle's very best form was recorded at the track - then those 21lbs would equate in theory to 28 lengths. Maybe Arkle didn't produce his very best in the race (although it's possible he did, if he could run so well at Sandown) but 20 lengths is 15lbs so Arkle would 'only' need to be 206 to do the job.

Tanlic said:
To beat Kauto by 20 lengths in 2008 Arkle would need to have recorded a time of roughly 5 mins 37 seconds. When Arkle won the King George his time was 6mins 9.2 seconds . Both races were run on good ground. In 4 of his King George's Kauto did a faster time than Arkle and a couple of those were on good to soft and on good to soft again he was only 2 seconds slower than Arkle.
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This is a red herring. You cannot compare times like this. After all, the handicapper Knockroe ran the 12f at Epsom faster than Sea Bird carrying more weight. You only need to look at track record holders at a random selection of tracks to see the actual race time is meaningless. Red Rum, in catching Crisp, took a huge chunk off the track record and people thought it would stand for ever. A number of years later, Mr Frisk took something like another 30s off the record. This doesn't mean winners before Red Rum were incapable of running that fast. They just didn't have to. Arkle didn't have to run any faster than he did but it doesn't mean he couldn't have if he had to.

Tanlic said:
To beat Kauto by 20 lengths in 2008 Arkle would need to have recorded a time of roughly 5 mins 37 seconds.
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Firstly, Kauto didn't run to 191 that year. If he did Alberta's Run would have run to 185, some way above his level. The conclusion has to be that the ground was faster than just good. Secondly, 20lbs doesn't equate to 20s over 3m. It's more like 4s. I reckon on fast ground, a smart handicapper could run in the low 3m50s round Kempton.

The old Standard Time for Kempton’s 3m is 5m55s. That’s for a 168 horse on good ground. For KS to have been a 191, he should have been able to run it in something like 3m50s. Faster conditions would bring that time down. The fastest he ever did it was 3m57 on good ground, when he beat Albertas Run 8 lengths (6lbs). His other times were between about 6m5s and 6m9s so there is no evidence on the clock that he was abnormally fast so why should Arkle have needed Frankelesque pace to beat him? Desert Orchid clocked 6m0s under 12-3 over C&D on good ground in the RP Chase and 5m50s on firm ground yet only beat Kildimo four lengths. Is anyone prepared to argue that Kildimo was a 188 beast?
 
and kauto star is still ..................................................the ...................king what a come back here ..............................................because desert orchid the faster they went the further they got beat :)
 
Did the KG have the same prestige in those days? (IE did the very best of the rest try to win it?) It's clear that if Arkle hadn't run in his Gold Cups, we'd be hailing the winners as greats of their time.

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The KG has always been held in high regard. One only has to look back at he history and line ups for that to be confirmed.
 
Flemenstar said:
Did the KG have the same prestige in those days? (IE did the very best of the rest try to win it?) It's clear that if Arkle hadn't run in his Gold Cups, we'd be hailing the winners as greats of their time.

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The KG has always been held in high regard. One only has to look back at he history and line ups for that to be confirmed.
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I thought the Hennessy, Gold Cup, Grand National and Whitbread were the big must-win races (maybe earlier for the National) for stayers. I was just thinking aloud rather than trying to make any meaningful assertion in that regard.

They do say the fastest horse wins the King George and the strongest stayer wins the Gold Cup so when you get one that can win both you have a genuine champ. Wayward Lad was one of my favourite horses and it broke my heart when the very ordinary Dawn Run took advantage of his failing stamina up the hill.
 
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