Arkle Appreciation Group

  • Thread starter Thread starter ArkleSupreme
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ArkleSupreme said:
Misfortune in health cost Denman very much the same way it cost Flyingbolt,though the difference is Denman had proven to be superior to Kauto Star before his health problems and there was firm talk he would try and do a Golden Miller the following year and go for a Gold Cup / Grand National double,whereas Flyingbolt was certainly not even the equal of Arkle !

Denman was unbeaten over fences just as Flyingbolt was before their health problems...what I have difficulty with is that Timeform lowered Denman's rating including his later races in his final assessment,yet they never did the same with Flyingbolt.

Either a horse is judged on his very best form only,or he is judged on his entire career..whether there are any health issues or not.

You can't have it both ways !
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The big difference, of course, is that Denman was considered his main rival's superior when Kauto Star had acheived a rating of around 186, not when his main rival had improved enough to earn a rating of 193. I do consider Denman the better horse round Cheltenham and possibly Newbury, but I'd take Kauto win at Kempton and Sandown - and by bigger distances, too.

I agree that the ratings should be based on a horse's very best performance.
 
Len Madeiros said:
Kauto's 2009 GC win was his best, obviously, and take Denman (13 lengths back)out of the race, and he's won a GC by 20 lengths - his second one. I would say that was a better performance than Best Mate's 2003 win.

.
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Ya think? Just a stone and a half better.

I find it strange that Kauto beating Exotic Dancer and Turpin Green is used to drag him down - yet Exotic Dancer was better than Best Mate on ratings and Best Mate did not face anything like as good in his three wins.
 
Best Mate was more consistent than Kauto Star,however,and had a far better record at Cheltenham,and won his Gold Cups more impressively than Kauto did in 2007,and the 2009 one is a hollow win due to Denman's sad demise by then.

Who truly believes that Kauto Star would have won in 2009 if Denman had not had his debilitating heart problem ?

Well ?
 
Kauto Star's second place in 2008 is stronger form that anything Best Mate achieved in winning three Gold Cup's from plodders.
 
ArkleSupreme said:
Best Mate was more consistent than Kauto Star,however,and had a far better record at Cheltenham,and won his Gold Cups more impressively than Kauto did in 2007,and the 2009 one is a hollow win due to Denman's sad demise by then.

Who truly believes that Kauto Star would have won in 2009 if Denman had not had his debilitating heart problem ?

Well ?
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I would say most of the country think he would have won regardless - he was in absolutely top form that day, beat Exotic Dancer and Neptunes Collonges by miles regardless of how far Denman was off form.

The ratings say Denman would have needed a career best to win that day - and Kauto Star was far from all out. So please point us to the form which supports your case for Denman winning?
 
ArkleSupreme said:
Best Mate was more consistent than Kauto Star,however,and had a far better record at Cheltenham,and won his Gold Cups more impressively than Kauto did in 2007,and the 2009 one is a hollow win due to Denman's sad demise by then.

Who truly believes that Kauto Star would have won in 2009 if Denman had not had his debilitating heart problem ?

Well ?
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Well, yes, I'd say that.

Kauto Star beat Dennman by 13 lengths in the 2009 GC, with Exotic Dancer three lengths back in third and Neptune Collonges a further eight lengths back in fourth. On the form book, both Denman and NC have run to form, because in the 2008 GC, Denman has beaten NC by eight lengths, too. Does that actually tell us that Denman was back to his 2008 Cheltenham form?

Btw, Denman has only beaten the 2007 GC runner-up, Exotic Dancer, by the same margin that Kauto Star beat him in 2007. And it is clearly evident that Kauto has massively improved, and that, definitely, Kauto's best performance at Cheltenham is better than Denman's. But Denman was defnitely more consistent round Cheltenham, I would say that.
 
Paul Nicholls himself was thrilled with Denman's performance in the 2009 Gold Cup because he wasn't even sure he would be placed...such had been the affect of (forgive me for saying it yet again Colin) his debilitating heart problem and he went off at 7/1 which endorsed the fact everyone knew he was nowhere near the same horse !

No way did Kauto Star improve by 20 lengths compared to the 2008 form...it was Denman who had regressed...and despite that he still beat Kauto twice more thereafter !

The better horse,when comparing both at their best even....for me,and many others I'm sure !
 
Nicholls was very worried about Denman, hence his relief mixed with delight, I think.

If we read the form book of the race literally - in the supreme championship race where there is no hint of a false pace - both Denman and Neptune Collonges have run to the form they produced in the 2008 GC. It is Kauto Star that has produced the performance of a lifetime.
 
We will have to differ on our views there, Len...because if that were the case then Denman would never have beaten Kauto Star in any of the Gold Cups thereafter !

You follow ?
 
Len Madeiros said:
Kauto Star beat Dennman by 13 lengths in the 2009 GC, with Exotic Dancer three lengths back in third and Neptune Collonges a further eight lengths back in fourth. On the form book, both Denman and NC have run to form
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NC wasn't right that day and subsequently was out of 18 months. No way he ran to anywhere near the same form.
 
Valid point also,Euronymous !

Kauto Star was fortunate that both his stablemates were a shadow of themselves in the 2009 Gold Cup !
 
ArkleSupreme said:
Valid point also,Euronymous !

Kauto Star was fortunate that both his stablemates were a shadow of themselves in the 2009 Gold Cup !
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NC still ran well enough to finish fourth that day and Denman well enough to be second - not the form of complete crocks, I'd say!

How about Kauto Star beating Exotic Star by 16 lengths in the 2009 GC? That's 13 lengths further than in 2007 - surely some improvement there?

Or are we expected to believe that a 'perfect storm' occurred that day, and that all of Kauto's main opponents - with previous GC form and all filling the minor placings - ran like drains?

I'm enjoying this debate. But Arkle is still the greatest - just a tiny reminder of the thread!
 
I can understand your attempts at "talking Kauto Star up " Len..though we do need a reality check here...Denman destroyed him in that epic first encounter with Neptune Collonges only a short head away in third place,and thereafter neither produced any performance as worthy of that due to their own unfortunate circumstances and it was a bonus that they bounced back to win the Hennessy Gold Cup and a Grand National between them...though Denman still managed to beat Kauto Star twice more !

The record books show all the results but if we compare like with like at their very best...Denman proved superior.

Good debate,nonetheless..though back to the subject matter...as you say..Arkle remains on a different planet !
 
ArkleSupreme said:
I can understand your attempts at "talking Kauto Star up " Len..though we do need a reality check here...Denman destroyed him in that epic first encounter with Neptune Collonges only a short head away in third place,and thereafter neither produced any performance as worthy of that due to their own unfortunate circumstances and it was a bonus that they bounced back to win the Hennessy Gold Cup and a Grand National between them...though Denman still managed to beat Kauto Star twice more !

The record books show all the results but if we compare like with like at their very best...Denman proved superior.

Good debate,nonetheless..though back to the subject matter...as you say..Arkle remains on a different planet !
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Just viewed the 2008 GC and it is a fantastic race, which reminds me of what I thought of Denman at the time - a total beast. He recovered from his heart condition but we know it was never his best form after that. But I think it is fair to say that Kauto Star did improve after that, and I do remember Nicholls saying that Kauto was never really at his best that season whereas Denman obviously was.

The 2008 and 2009 races were run on diffferent surfaces, too, each surface favouring one horse more than the other. But that's just racing - very few are great enough to win on all surfaces.

I favoured Kauto Star, yes, more for his versatility and his bouncebackability, but we were also blessed to enjoy 'The Tank' for four great seasons. I think we will learn over the next few seasons just how lucky we were between 2006-11, watching those magnificent horses racing each other as well as taking on the all-comers and spitting them out.
 
The 1963-1966 years were far more exciting,however,Len and I was only a youngster at the time,but thanks to my 8 years older brother I have never forgotten them as I watched all the important races of that time on BBC and ITV.

I wouldn't worry too much about the quality deteriorating anytime soon....not with Sprinter Sacre around...for sure !
 
My first memory of Arkle was hearing that he'd died unfortunately! Not quite old enough to have watched him. Funny how I can still recall that event but don't recall any "proper" news event until 1972!

We love our champions, AS, which is why SS excited us so much. Here's hoping.
 
Most certainly...Arkle was born 19th April 1957 and died 31st May 1970 and was an Aries like my goodself !

I will "slip away" to watch SS race on Sunday as I am attending a piano festival involving my younger daughter...luckily her performance is long before his race !
 
ArkleSupreme said:
I can understand your attempts at "talking Kauto Star up " Len..though we do need a reality check here...Denman destroyed him in that epic first encounter with Neptune Collonges only a short head away in third place,and thereafter neither produced any performance as worthy of that due to their own unfortunate circumstances and it was a bonus that they bounced back to win the Hennessy Gold Cup and a Grand National between them...though Denman still managed to beat Kauto Star twice more !

The record books show all the results but if we compare like with like at their very best...Denman proved superior.

Good debate,nonetheless..though back to the subject matter...as you say..Arkle remains on a different planet !
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If you compare them at their very best, Denman is half a stone inferior.
 
He was half a stone superior as borne out by his 7 lengths win over Kauto Star in the 2008 Gold Cup....and was never the same horse,thereafter !

I think we have flogged that topic to death now and need to create a new thread if you wish to discuss it any further though I will have nothing else to add on that matter.

This thread exists to appreciate the greatest chaser of all time,Arkle.
 
Bigflow...this thread was certainly originally created to praise the great Arkle...however,Tanlic was the first to open the can of worms by suggesting Kauto Star had produced ANY performance to match that of Arkle's and it went from there.

Hope that explains matters for you.
 
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