Bar the Bull
At the Start
Even flat-bred Istabraq was the subject of a little bit of talk about chasing.
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Big Buck's- Staying Hurdling Arkle
- Thread starter Ardross
- Start date
:lol:
Big Bucks would need to have his back legs tied together to lose to Limestone Lad.
.
Absolutely certain Big Bucks is best of these. In any other year, we would be hailing Grand Crus as one of the best weve seen in this division. None of the above beat anything of that calibre i believe and agree about mighty man too
Not better than iris Gift? Come on surely....
To be honest I think Iris's Gift might well have been the best of the others - his owner's utterly irrational obsession with making him into a chaser meant we never saw IG have a chance to make his mark again over hurdles
Miss Nero
At the Start
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2008
- Messages
- 92
I'd put Big Buck's down as the best staying hurdler I've seen.
I was one who was disappointed that he didn't get another chance over fences after the Hennessy. He was only five and still ran a bloody good race first time up that season, I thought. He also had Albertas Run behind him in the novice chase at Aintree the season before. I take others' point about how he never really looked a natural over fences, though.
The staying hurdling division has seen plenty of criticism in its time, though there's no doubt some top class horses have graced it, particularly in the last decade. Some of these when tried over fences failed to make an impact. I suppose the question is how do you define how good a horse is? Does it have to prove itself in a certain sphere?
I remarked last week that I was interested to see Nicholls and Dan Skelton say they felt Big Buck's was the best they'd had at Ditcheat, and this week it seems David Pipe might be about to agree with them. I was inclined to disagree as I think a six, seven and eight year old Kauto could have won those hurdles races in a similar fashion.
But I can see Big Buck's remaining unbeaten in this sphere for a long time, illness or injury aside. I can reassess my thoughts of him if and when. I fear I may always be biased towards my chasers, though, particularly the staying ones.
I was one who was disappointed that he didn't get another chance over fences after the Hennessy. He was only five and still ran a bloody good race first time up that season, I thought. He also had Albertas Run behind him in the novice chase at Aintree the season before. I take others' point about how he never really looked a natural over fences, though.
The staying hurdling division has seen plenty of criticism in its time, though there's no doubt some top class horses have graced it, particularly in the last decade. Some of these when tried over fences failed to make an impact. I suppose the question is how do you define how good a horse is? Does it have to prove itself in a certain sphere?
I remarked last week that I was interested to see Nicholls and Dan Skelton say they felt Big Buck's was the best they'd had at Ditcheat, and this week it seems David Pipe might be about to agree with them. I was inclined to disagree as I think a six, seven and eight year old Kauto could have won those hurdles races in a similar fashion.
But I can see Big Buck's remaining unbeaten in this sphere for a long time, illness or injury aside. I can reassess my thoughts of him if and when. I fear I may always be biased towards my chasers, though, particularly the staying ones.
I'd also prefer BB to LL, but as much as I like Big Bucks I don't see him as superior to Baracouda. He probably hasn't run to Baracouda's best performances. I'm pretty sure if they both put up their best show Baracouda would win out.
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I wasn't a particular fan of ID, although ID clearly ruled the roost for a bit. It's more difficult to split Big Bucks and Baracouda, but I'd have a decisive preference for the latter.
Bar the Bull
At the Start
Limestone Lad was one of my fav horses ever; but no way was he better than Big Buck's.
That just sounds wrong.
That just sounds wrong.
I never thought I was a fan of the staying hurdle side of racing, but the more I think about it the more I realise that it caters more for the human side of racing and the quirkier horses. Limestone Lad and his humble background [ok I'm exaggerating here but lives in a caravan and eats people for breakfast;then he goes on the decline and up pops Solerina who is almost as good]; Iris's Gift; bought when the owners mum dies; she looks down on him as he carries all before him. We actually followed him one year..everywhere we went he ran and won; Uttoxeter, Bangor and then Cheltenham. Unfortunately we were at Punchestown when he lost because the trainer deecided to run another horse against him. Barracuda with the exaggerated delay tactics of his jockey. I'll never forget the look on Francois Doumens face when he lost at the Festival. Then the mighty terrier that was Inglis Drever who overcame injury. And now BB; the Black Beauty of racing. Quite a bunch of characters.
granger
Senior Jockey
That's a really good post
Limestone in a canter
typical post of you,
I just wonder many times how so many people follow a sport for such a long way and has so low level of the subject........maybe is an intelligence problem, dont tak it bad
Bar the Bull
At the Start
Again, I will preface this remark by saying that Limestone Lad was one of my favourite horses ever.
The highest rating Limestone Lad won a handicap hurdle off was 153.
After he established himself at the top table, Limestone Lad was beaten over hurdles by the following horses:
Istabraq over 2m (no shame in that)
In receipt of 3lb Le Coudray over 2m4f
By Istabraq, Stage Affair and Knife Edge over 2m
By Bacchanal over 3m (on good to firm)
Giving 7lb to Bannow Bay over 2m4f (seasonal debut, so no shame in that)
By Bannow Bay and Catch Ball over 3m (but he had run over fences that season, so was not back to top form)
By Liss A Paoraigh over 2m4f
By Bannow Bay over 3m
By Like-A-Butterfly over 2m (would have been way too short at this stage of his career)
By Baracouda and Iris's Gift over 3m
His record was admirable. He was probably tougher than Big Buck's.
I would agree that his record had substance, but substance enough to say that he was a few pounds below the best over hurdles.
That race in which he beat Istabraq was a fabulous performance. He was getting 5lb from the champ, though. And a breakneck gallop for 20f around Fairyhouse in a bog was not Istabraq's cup of tea.
I'm not putting forward Limestone Lad as the best of all time -not even the best of the last 10 years but he was an incredible animal and given his conditions he was very hard to beat.
Why did Istabraq give him 5Ibs in the Hattons Grace?
Why did Istabraq give him 5Ibs in the Hattons Grace?
Bar the Bull
At the Start
I don't know, Luke.
I think pre-2000, Grade 1 hurdle winners were penalised in some Grade 1 races.
I think pre-2000, Grade 1 hurdle winners were penalised in some Grade 1 races.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
Much as I'm a fan of Big Buck's, Limestone Lad was a superlative horse - hard-raced every season, capable of winning at trips from 2m to 3m, running-up to the very best form in every race, and all of it done with a tremendously genuine attitude and front-running, catch-me-if-you-can panache.
Big Buck's probably is better, but his career - for all its merit - is a fairly drab monochrome compared to the rich palette provided by Limestone Lad.
In my opinion anyway.
Big Buck's probably is better, but his career - for all its merit - is a fairly drab monochrome compared to the rich palette provided by Limestone Lad.
In my opinion anyway.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
Just been having a trip down memory lane looking at Limestone Lad's record. He was unplaced only five times in a run of 50-odd races over jumps, in a little over five years.
He is everything you could ever want in a racehorse, and I would much rather have owned him than Big Buck's - even if he was a handful of lbs behind in terms of pure ability.
He is everything you could ever want in a racehorse, and I would much rather have owned him than Big Buck's - even if he was a handful of lbs behind in terms of pure ability.