Black Caviar

EC1 said:
she has run below her best Suny..we know how good their sprinters are from years gone by..and no one over there thinks she is inferior to past ones they have sent over

just looking at the result doesn't tell the full story...she did cruise the race and the jock let her slow down when he should have been fully urging her..it seems to me the orders were to give her as easy a race as possible..which he did all through the race

IF the jockey had ridden her correctly in the last furlong she could have won further..but not to a level of the 136 of her TF rating obviously...have TF rated her a stone wrong?..i doubt it..they didn't rate other Aussie sprinters that far wrong.

you cannot stop riding a horse at a track like ascot..the momemtum doesn't carry..so he has made her look at least a couple of lengths worse than she is imo..his efforts throughout the final furlong were virtually nil even before he dropped his hands
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Of course I know this was not her best form , but my feeling is she had hit 120/123 yesterday and could have been a bridle horse able to hit 129 regurlarly and maybe a pair of 132/133
similar level to Goldikova
what is not is a 140 horse as they suggested



about yesterdays
if you think she lost 2 lengths with the ride, we have watched a different race in the tv
no more than a neck lost for me
 
Jockey reckons he eased down 5 strides before the line, and would have won 3/4 of a length otherwise, which sounds reasonable to me.
 
In my opinion all the jockeys missed a trick there, they allowed Nolen to dictate the pace assuming that they were only riding for places, it dawned on them too late that they might be able to win.
 
if anyone here had backed a horse and the jockey put as little effort in in the whole of the last furlong i know what the comments would have been

yes he eventually dropped his hands..but what about the last furlong urgings?..there were none

i think many were under the impression they were going to come here and demonstrate her greatness..when in fact its clear they were always going to give as least push as was necessary

i also think the other jockeys held back early expecting her to go a lot faster..the early pace was pedestrian..so its no puzzle why the race was slower than the wokingham..its barely an exercise canter early on
 
walsworth said:
In my opinion all the jockeys missed a trick there, they allowed Nolen to dictate the pace assuming that they were only riding for places, it dawned on them too late that they might be able to win.
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correct..but even then..none of them could have expected the jockey to be a passenger throughout the last furlong
 
Venusian said:
The thing that really sways it for me is that Hay List, who she's thrashed every time she's met him, is a better sprinter than any of the horses Dayjur beat. Remember, Hay List would be hailed as one of the greats if Black Caviar hadn't been born - he's got a higher rating than Takeover Target, Choisir and Scenic Blast, who were all top-notch Group 1 horses.
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Now we're in Arkle-Mill House-Kauto Star territory... ;)
 
Pity there are no form lines between the European horses and Hay List? Also unfortunate that he probably won't race agin and, if he does may not be as good as before. Not sure where he's at recovery wise.
 
From the RP site:

'Sore' Black Caviar expected to race again

BY DAVID MILNES 12:09PM 24 JUN 2012

AUSSIE ace Black Caviar is expected to race on despite sustaining some soft tissue injuries during her heart-stopping victory in Saturday's Diamond Jubilee Stakes at Royal Ascot.


Trainer Peter Moody described his 22-time unbeaten mare as "very, very flat and the tiredest I have ever seen her" after examining his stable star on Sunday morning at her temporary base at Abington Place stables in Newmarket.
Black Caviar appeared to some onlookers not to be moving quite right in the winner's enclosure after holding off Moonlight Cloud by a head at Ascot.

Moody said: "I have had my vets and chiropractors take some precautionary x-rays of Black Caviar this morning. They have come back fine but she has some soft tissue damage. I think it is called the quadricep muscle where the main problem is and she is quite sore behind."

Moody added: "She'll now spend four weeks in quarantine and then when we get her home we will give her three months off and get her ready for the Spring Carnival in Melbourne in November.

"She will be prepared for another crack at the Patinack Farm Classic at Flemington, which she has won for the past two years."
 
The starter's decision to let them go when Society Rock was bashing Murtagh against the back of the stalls was a disgrace.

Also a disgrace was the 144% win book. Presumably, the bookies will justify it by pointing to the place terms but any 14-runner race where the front two in the market are priced at 1/6 and 5/1 should hugely embarrass them. Some of the other SPs are incredible. Restiadargent went off at 40s when she was over 210 on Betfair and Jimmy Styles' Betfair SP was 340 but he started at just 50/1 with the bookies.
 
gus said:
The starter's decision to let them go when Society Rock was bashing Murtagh against the back of the stalls was a disgrace.

Also a disgrace was the 144% win book. Presumably, the bookies will justify it by pointing to the place terms but any 14-runner race where the front two in the market are priced at 1/6 and 5/1 should hugely embarrass them. Some of the other SPs are incredible. Restiadargent went off at 40s when she was over 210 on Betfair and Jimmy Styles' Betfair SP was 340 but he started at just 50/1 with the bookies.
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Not defending them but how would you bet on the race if you were standing on course and offering full place terms?
 
I doubt we will see her race again. She has officially injured herself, with two muscle tears (apparently carried them in the race) and major bruising on her hind legs.

Whilst some may be disappointed, this win will for mine go down as her greatest. Based on the information that she was racing with this old injury (which mind you folk kept her out for almost 6 months previously when she was a 3yo filly), and still won, despite not being ridden to the line.

Probably now a blessing in disguise that Nolen did not ride her out, because if he had of given her a wack with the whip, and she had really put in, only fate would know what would of truly happened. We may not have had a horse at the end of the race.

She is what I define as a true champion. Her spirit has engulfed my nation, and over 10,000 people showed up to Federation Square on Sunday morning. You wont get that anywhere else in the world.
 
Any possibility that the injury occurred in the stalls? I know our stalls are narrower than American ones, are Australian ones similar?
 
Not sure how she sustained the injury Wal. :confused:

I wouldn't be surprised if its in the running of the race, because I think she wore her barrier blanket, which does give some protection.

On a brighter note Hay List is recovering incredibly well and may be back shortly. He is currently in the paddock mending.
 
Gamla Stan said:
Not defending them but how would you bet on the race if you were standing on course and offering full place terms?
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If "offering full place terms" means I'd have a win book looking like that, I wouldn't be offering full place terms. It's a case of the tail wagging the dog to an unacceptable degree. The sooner we move to separate win and place markets, the better all round.
 
I watched the race again a couple of times today. Check the BBC iplayer and see if you agree with me that BC was 2 lengths ahead of Soul when the jockey decided he'd done enough and she had a length in hand of Soul at the line. She'd only have needed to be kept going, rather than eased off, to have won by about a length.

I'm a tad surprised by the sectionals. It looked to me like some deent sprinters were run off their feet early on. Certainly the second and third came from some way back so I can see that they might have picked up speed late on but I can't beleive BC was faster in the last furlong than in the second last. Plus they're running uphill at that point so I'd have expected them all to be slowing. Or is the interpretaion of the sectionals relative?
 
Going by this:

reet hard said:
The time was probably slower than the Wokingham because they didn't go a great pace early (Sectionals show *all the first 3 gained speed each furlong - section 2,3,4 & 5).
Had they done so, there's little doubt Black Caviar wouldn't have lasted as well as she did.

*Edit - Make that virtually the whole field.
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you wouldn't be able to gain speed in the last furlong as its more uphill than the other furlongs

pity there are no sectionals for the wokingham...the jubilee looks steady early looking at the sectionals

something that people don't factor in re pace in these sprints..is that in handicaps those making the early pace usually have less weight to carry than those racing in the conditions race..and so make the pace that bit faster earlier..thats why i use handicaps for standard times...they are a true test..whereas many group sprints aren't.
 
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Any possibility that the injury occurred in the stalls? I know our stalls are narrower than American ones, are Australian ones similar?
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UK and Australian starting stalls are the same, all made by Steriline, an Australian company.
 
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Trainers have often complained about starting stalls in this country. They are narrower than they should be (i.e. narrower than is recommended) due to transporting them about and the width of the motorways here. Courses don't tend to own their own stalls and they have to be hired and transported for an event.
 
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From the RP site:

Report: Australia, Saturday

Flemington: Black Caviar Lightning Stakes (Group 1) 5f, turf, 2yo+

BLACK CAVIAR (Peter Moody/Luke Nolen) broke the track record at Flemington on Saturday when she extended her record-breaking unbeaten sequence to 23 in the Lightning Stakes in Melbourne.

Having her first start since her dramatic victory at Royal Ascot, the six-year-old made light of the eight-month layoff to complete a hat-trick in the Group 1 event, renamed this year in honour of the three-time world champion sprinter.

Black Caviar was always to the fore before sauntering away from her rivals in the middle of the race and scoring eased down by two and a half lengths over her Group 1-winning stablemate Moment Of Change, with Golden Archer third to complete a 1-2-3 for trainer Peter Moody.

‘‘I'm just so proud of her," said Moody. "I'm a little bit emotional for the first time, s**t it's good to have her back.''

Black Caviar stopped the clock at 55.42s for the 1,000-metre trip, beating Special's longstanding course record by 0.08s, and covering the last 600 metres in 31.43s.
 
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Outstanding! Like she's never been away.

I just hope they don't have 9 races in 8 months again with her like they did before Ascot.

I'd hate to see her get beaten and she almost was at Ascot in a race she probably shouldn't even have run in. Almost every good judge who saw her that day said she had gone in her coat and looked over the top.

She deserves better than that so I hope Moody gives her a bit more time between races this time.............love to see her take on the best in Europe when she was at her best and show them just how good she really is.

Best Sprinter of all time imvho
 
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