Bloodstock News

Take a shufti at any sales catalogue, and you may be surprised by how many of the offerings' dams were unraced - I reckoned a good third from Goff's last year, where I picked up the unraced DANETIME - quite possibly a higher ratio than that.

Some quotes from the current issue of Owner & Breeder on the subject we're discussing:

Paul Thorman (Trickledown Stud, breeder and consignor): I've advocated not so much the reduction in the fee but the reduction in the number they (stallions) cover. That is the important thing. The mathematics are the same, whether you get 150 x £10,000 or 100 x £15,000. The total remains the same and we would do a lot more good to the industry to reduce supply than increase demand by lowering the fees. Dropping fees wholesale is too easy an answer.

Brian O'Rourke (National Stud): The market will dictate to stallion owners which fees need to come down. We will take all the data from the yearling sales and decide on our stallions. In the US the market collapsed - there it will also depend on individual stallions, but overall they will need a greater readjustment.

Grant Pritchard-Gordon: It's not so much a question of 'should stallion fees come down?' It's more that breeders will look at their returns from the yearlings they have produced and see how much they have or haven't made. Then they will look at the stallion prices and if the prices are too high, they won't go back to those stallions. The stallion masters could pre-empt the situation and lower the prices. But it's driven by mare owners. They are not forced to go anywhere. It's all about market forces.

Jim Bolger: I'm a believer that water finds its own level. The market will dictate the fees but it will not be upwards. The drop will be significant.

Chris Harper: It all depends on supply and demand. OASIS DREAM won't come down; I wouldn't be surprised if he doubled. The ones that aren't in demand will have to come down or they won't get any mares.

Some interesting thoughts, but I personally tilt towards Paul Thorman's views - you can cut the stallions all you want, but all that may result in is loads more crappy mares visiting them for the BOGOF-type fees, and producing even more rubbish for future years. That isn't the answer. The answer is getting shot of the poor stallions as well as strongly restricting the number of mares the better ones' owners accept - and preferably not just by the numbers, either, but by their quality. The recession has presented the ideal time to make healthy changes for the good of the TB and racing in general - but I suspect that greed will be king. Every man and stallion for himself, and to hell with the objective view.
 
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lavirco put down in the French National Stud. started to be a eally good sire of NH horses. only 16. gosh, I can remember his derby so vividly....
 
I'm not sure what Data Mr O'Rourke was looking at , nothing I've seen anyway !

There doesn't seem to be an appreciation of how much sh1t has hit the fan over here judging by the other comments. The only one that seems to reflect that and probably the difference between the Stallion men and the breeders poiint of view is Mr Bolgers.

Mr Thormans comments make perfect sense but it's not something that needs to be tackled in a recession. It will fix it self, over here anyway.
 
Nothing fixes itself - if you mean that perhaps a lot of mares and foals were sent to abattoirs both there and here, you may well be right, Sheikh, but nothing just 'fixes' itself. Thought and action fix things, and Paul's looking to the future, not just the here and now, which would be short-sighted. If post-recession means going back to another glut of moderate animals and overstood stallions, then God help the breed and racing.
 
Im in the Thorman camp about this too - I said it years and years ago on the subject of the over breeding of New Forest ponies that run "wild". The NF breed society plan was to grade the stallions that they put out, to get better quality ponies who will make better than £5 - £20 each at the sales - my answer was to halve the number of mares out there. Just putting 8 or 9 stallions out will do diddly squat for the number of foals produced - but halve and grade the mares, you immediately halve the foals.

Has the better quality stallions plan worked?? has it heck as like - my friend went to the September sale and came home with 5, for £113.
 
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Bluddy hell! Five ponies for £113 - that's not anywhere near meat money, that's really shocking, Troods. What appalls me about overbreeding is that there's still so much apathy towards it - the TBA (and presumably also the ITBA) just isn't interested in being proactive and coming up with systems where the low quality stallions, especially those which produce known poor types, are disincentivized. Just as there is a grading system for horses in racing, there should be some sort of ratings system for stallions which doesn't pertain to their fee. They'd start at 0-50 for their first year (let's face it, provided they stay healthy, they're probably going to be bonking until they drop at 25 or older, so there's no need to rush things), and then depending on their foal viability, foal soundness and correctness, and eventually the displays on course by their actual runners, they, as sires, would finally get into the top band. It's no good assuming that because a colt is a hotpot in his racing career, that he's going to be the same once he's prancing around the breeding sheds. Some nasty traits, say a propensity to throw wobblers (I'm surprised that SHAMARDAL hasn't passed this on - or has he?) or poor breathers might come to light, early on with some foals, later, in training, with the others, and all of this should affect their desirability to remain in the bloodline.

In fact, I'd like see a little key next to their names with symbols - rather like you get for motorway service stations! - showing in red any bad traits they've passed on, such as a red horseshoe for progeny with dodgy feet, a red exclamation mark for passing on behavioural problems, a hypodermic for early onset arthritis, and so on. It sounds daft, I know, but breeders, consignors and bloodstock agents, while they can do wonders for particular clients, aren't all willing to pass on their knowledge of what's what when it comes to the sales ring. More than enough dodgepots-to-be are passed off to unwitting amateurs, trainers who will take anything so long as they can claim fees for them, and so on. It's to cull the reckless breeders, whether they own the sires, dams, or both, that the breeding associations should be tackling - and it seems they aren't. They're tending to sit back, have a bit of a moan, and then assume that everything will eventually shake out a bit and once it has, everything will be fine. No, it won't be. It's complacency like that which does nothing to improve the situation.

There'll most likely be a lot fewer 2 y.o.'s in training in 2011, but if many of those will have been bred by breeders going to cheap and mediocre stallions, then they will be perpetuating the endless supply of rubbish which punters - especially members of racing forums - are so fond of denigrating. That will not be the problem solved - it will be the problem increased even more.
 
Nothing fixes itself - if you mean that perhaps a lot of mares and foals were sent to abattoirs both there and here, you may well be right, Sheikh, but nothing just 'fixes' itself.
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yes a lot of mares will not be bred.

Thought and action fix things, and Paul's looking to the future, not just the here and now, which would be short-sighted. If post-recession means going back to another glut of moderate animals and overstood stallions, then God help the breed and racing
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When people are trying to keep their heads above water looking to to the future is the furtherst thing from their minds. When things stabilise than the issues can be tackled.
 
Yes, I know a lot of mares won't and aren't being bred from, Sheikh, but that's not fixing the problem! You seem to be confusing not breeding with breeding better. If I have a crap mare and I leave her empty this year, how, tell me, have I contributed to fixing the problem if I continue to breed from her in future? The same with the poor quality sires - just because they get fewer mares this year, doesn't stop them from still breeding and passing on poor genes for the future.

The overproduction is what's led to gigantic fields of no-hopers, particularly in Ireland, which helped to overstuff its racehorse population with sire subsidies. Everyone jumped on the bandwagon as 'savings' could be passed on to the mare owners, who kept their animals very busy foaling every year. Hence your huge fields on both the Flat and over jumps, every race, every meeting. The fact that easily 2/3 would never be any good didn't matter - money was king, and never mind the quality, feel the width.

It is exactly when things are bad that breeders should be addressing the future! You would have it that people sit down in a slump of pity, passively waiting for something to miraculously save them. That ain't going to happen. They need to shoot their useless mares, do the same with some of the worst of the stallions, and open up a B&B or take a job in B&Q for the time being. Christ, what happened to a bit of lateral thinking? You'll be wanting counselling lines for them next! :blink:
 
(Got to go out into our fantastically windy city and pay for my car tax now - but hope to continue our discussion later, if I'm not whirled off to Selsey.)
 
krizon said:
Yes, I know a lot of mares won't and aren't being bred from, Sheikh, but that's not fixing the problem! You seem to be confusing not breeding with breeding better. If I have a crap mare and I leave her empty this year, how, tell me, have I contributed to fixing the problem if I continue to breed from her in future? The same with the poor quality sires - just because they get fewer mares this year, doesn't stop them from still breeding and passing on poor genes for the future.

The overproduction is what's led to gigantic fields of no-hopers, particularly in Ireland, which helped to overstuff its racehorse population with sire subsidies. Everyone jumped on the bandwagon as 'savings' could be passed on to the mare owners, who kept their animals very busy foaling every year. Hence your huge fields on both the Flat and over jumps, every race, every meeting. The fact that easily 2/3 would never be any good didn't matter - money was king, and never mind the quality, feel the width.

It is exactly when things are bad that breeders should be addressing the future! You would have it that people sit down in a slump of pity, passively waiting for something to miraculously save them. That ain't going to happen. They need to shoot their useless mares, do the same with some of the worst of the stallions, and open up a B&B or take a job in B&Q for the time being. Christ, what happened to a bit of lateral thinking? You'll be wanting counselling lines for them next! :blink:
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Like I stated earlier there does not seem to be an understanding of how bad the situation is here at the moment. You would not get a job in B&Q as for a B&B... that's a luxury. The recession here will not be sorted for years to come. I doubt we'll ever see the same no.s of mares bred again.

As I said before Thormans comments make perfect sense but by the time this place comes around economically again the problem will be with too few mares not too little. I think you are finding a disagreement where there isn't one you just don't understand the situation here at the moment. The dole que is huge and growing, the entire public service is going out in strike in fear of the next budget, Irelands credit rating has dropped and is in severe danger of being dropped again, repossesions are spiralling....overproduction will be consigned to the history books.
 
Not sure if you saw it Dims but Supreme Serenade was sold at the sales in foal to Presenting earlier in the week for 85k.
Slaney River Stud responsible for the likes of Megans Joy & Valley Ride bought her.
 
Sheikh - does one of those jobs involve a ski mask and a large bag?? If you're successful, let me know, and I'll be over to help you with the next one!
 
He's by the desirable KINGMAMBO, true, but will it count against him that his best success (his single G1) came at Sha Tin, and nothing of that calibre here or even in Europe? True, he's a turf horse, but I just wonder how that stacks up versus home wins.
 
Triptych said:
Red Ransom put down in Australia at 22.
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:( Gutted - saw him at Darley one year and thought he was lovely. The stallion handler warned me to be careful as he was known to bite but he just spent 20 minutes liking my hand. RIP old man.
 
G-G said:
Do you know why Triptych?
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From the RP:

Red Ransom dies aged 22
By George Kimberley11.31AM 15 NOV 2009
RED Ransom, the sire of 2003 Epsom Oaks heroine Casual Look, has died at Vinery Australia the age of 22. The son of Roberto was put down on Saturday due to complications after receiving intestinal surgery.
The most expensive stallion on this season's Vinery Australia roster at A$66,000 (£36,884/€41,300), Red Ransom was fully booked for the current southern hemisphere season. Only last week, he was represented by his 13th individual Group/Grade 1 winner when All American captured the Cantala/Emirates Stakes at Flemington. A week earlier, his daughter Typhoon Tracy won the Group 1 Empire Rose Stakes at the same track.
Injury restricted Red Ransom's career on the track to just three starts but two impressive victories in the colours of Paul Mellon ensured him a berth at stud, and he duly retired for the 1991 season to Vinery in Kentucky at a fee of $7,500.
He went on to become an immediate success with his first crop containing Grade 1 winner Bail Out Becky and the top-class European juvenile Sri Pekan, who won five on the bounce for Paul Cole including the Coventry Stakes, Richmond Stakes and Champagne Stakes.
Later stars included Epsom Oaks winner Casual Look, Intikhab, who is best remembered for his eight-length demolition of the 1998 Queen Anne Stakes at Royal Ascot (then a Group 2), the top-class sprinter Red Clubs, Italian Group 1 winner Ekraar, the ill-fated Dubai World Cup heroElectrocutionist and Breeders' Cup Filly & Mare Turf winner Perfect Sting.
Red Ransom was available to European breeders at Dalham Hall Stud in Newmarket for fives seasons from 2004, initially at a fee of £35,000, but he was also extremely popular in Australia, where his six Group 1 scorers include Charge Forward, winner of the Group 1 Galaxy Handicap at Randwick and now a promising young sire in the southern hemisphere.
Red Ransom is represented by at least 15 sons at stud worldwide, including the Irish-based Intikhab, the sire of the Group 1-winning miler Red Evie, Red Clubs, whose first crop are foals, and China Visit and Ekraar, each of whom have sired Group/Grade 1 performers from their basesin India and New Zealand.
In Australia, his sons at stud include Charge Forward, whose first crop son Headway recently landed the Group 1 Ascot Vale Stakes at Flemington.
Red Ransom is also the damsire of the Group/Grade 1 winners Eyjur and Devil May Care.
Out of the Damascus mare Arabia, Red Ransom was a half-brother to four winners and from the family of Grade 1 winner Winter's Tale.
 
krizon said:
He's by the desirable KINGMAMBO, true, but will it count against him that his best success (his single G1) came at Sha Tin, and nothing of that calibre here or even in Europe? True, he's a turf horse, but I just wonder how that stacks up versus home wins.
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And his dam is a half sister to Nureyev and Fairy Bridge. I think you're right though, his race record will count against him.
 
Coolmore have announced big reductions in the fees of most of their US based stallions. Only Tale of the Cat's fee remains unchanged. Giant's Causeway drops from 125k to 100k, while Henrythenavigator falls from 65k to 40k, with Fusaichi Pegasus and Van Nistelrooy both having their fees halved.
 
Southern Halo has died aged 26yrs

Motivator has been withdrawn from 2010 stud duties to allow his tendon injury to heal,

Diabolical has been retied to New Mexico
 
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