Bloodstock News
- Thread starter krizon
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imagine
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Does this mean LL has already been accepted to be covered by STS? If not, might they possibly refuse her due to the pedigree similarities?
Dylan Thomas
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They just want to get as many group winning and producing mares.Have ye heard of any more mares getting accepted a person i no fairly well is nearly sure he's accepted but she's a group winning mare
G
Gearoid
Guest
Venusian - Cheers for your posts on Lush Lashes and Sea Stars Came on to the thread hoping someone would explain the thinking behind it.
crazyhorse
At the Start
can anybody tell me which stud, trading at tattersalls and near newmarket, has been sold to german investors? sadlers wells son Posidon Adventure - you are forgiven if you do not know him - will / shall take up stallion duties there next year ??!!!
This sort of policy may well work to advantage short term. Longer term best-with-best inbreeding will only weaken the genetic pool. I'd like to see more out-crossing going on, but with the huge sums at stake this is unlikely... this is the opposite of imaginative imo, it's short-termism for a safer bet.
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davidjohnson
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She was well before my time regarding an interest in racing but her timeform physical description suggested she was a, 'leggy, sparely-made mare' and an unimpressive walker.
Sheikh
At the Start
Interesting, there-in lies the reason for all the poor mares that are bred, she could run being the major difference. The Mr Prospector line doesn't have the best rep for legs particularly knees.
Hall Walker liked to alternate the kind of inbreeding I described with an outcross to a suitable top class stallion.
In short, inbreed (Hall Walker-style) to try to fix desired characteristics, then outcross for hybrid vigour.
The accusation of "short-termism" is wildly off-beam. Hall Walker, who liked to spend very little money when purchasing mares, had a quite extraordinary long-term influence on the breed.
He bred the second dams of the following champion stallions:
Blandford, Princequillo, Hyperion, Sickle, Big Game and Challenger.
The first four named could accurately be described as "breed-shaping".
G
Gearoid
Guest
What sort of mare is likely to give STS the best chance of a notable foal and if he does produce a foal with Zarakava is it odds on to be his most expensive off spring through the sales of his first crop?
davidjohnson
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I'd be amazed if the Aga Khan sent it to the sales.
G
Gearoid
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That was a fair bit stupid of me in fairness!
Sheikh
At the Start
Yes in the immortal words of forest Gump. "Life is like a box of chocolates , you never know what your going to get".
In this case, apparently Urban Sea was not the best looking mare ever, but her progeny are gorgeous.
davidjohnson
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No-one said they weren't, it was the suggestion that Urban Sea was that was disagreed with.
The only long-term effect to come out of this sort of policy is to restrict the gene pool. In that sense I would agree it has a long-term (detrimental) effect on the breed. Breed shaping is not necessarily a desirable thing though. This policy often appears to be successful as it has a higher chance of throwing up successful next-generation individuals, but the longer term effects of inbreeding are not so clever.
This sort of policy is the 'safe' option. It's quite understandable why it is done (everyone is doing it), but is neither imaginative nor ultimately desirable.
This is not a particular criticism of Hall Walker, who did what he did with the resources he had to success.
However, Q) If you could clone everything to Northern Dancer, would you? A) Probably yes. Q) Should you? A) Almost certainly no.
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Please, mister - 'ow can sumfink be 'almost certainly'? Innit like 'a bit pregnant'? You is or you isn't. HYPERION dominated for so long - I remember having an old b&w press photo of him and perhaps three others from his stud, titled 'A Million on the Hoof', since that was their value then. Now it's extremely difficult to get away from the influence of Le Grand Bonker: SADLER'S WELLS, who must've covered half the planet's TB mares in his long life. I suppose, provided he doesn't throw wrong 'uns, it'll be SEA THE STARS for the next two decades.
Haven't we reached a final destination with TBs, though? I can't think where they can be taken to next in terms of optimum skeletal health, respiration, etc. If we de-junk the badly-conformed, so that they don't pass on defects which are counter to best performance and are likely to cause arthritic and other conditions later, de-junk those with other known defects such as poor feet, tendency to bleed, sire wobblers, and so on, then I'd have thought we'd got the animal pretty much as far as it can go.
Speed is and will be determined by the skeleton, particularly the ability of the leg bones to take the weight of a heavily-muscled rear end, and the pelvic/hip/stifle to provide the driving mechanism.
Distance and endurance is and will be determined by heart and lung capacity, regardless of the animal's shape. KAUTO STAR shows that a relatively narrow animal isn't hampered, per se, provided it has the girth, shoulder line and is well-conformed behind.
Both types, and middle-distance specialists, too, still need an appropriate attitude or personality. It doesn't matter if you have a fizzy sprinter, provided its fizz isn't all spent in the parade ring or faffing about in the stalls. It doesn't matter if any horse has a plain head, scrawny neck, even a low-set tail (although it's often paired with sickle hocks), provided its underlying skeleton shows up in otherwise good conformation. Forget the straight-shouldered horse on upright pasterns - it's at best going to be a daisy-cutter, constrained by its poor angles, incapable of ever striding out. Going fast with short, sharp steps, yes, but that will only work on Good to Firm, and not over distance.
It's when ignorance or misguided experimentation mixes builds (or allows bad builds to breed) and functions that problems occur. Horses for courses, yes, but horses for duties, always. You must breed the right type, the right shape, the best temperament, for the job you expect it to do. (And while this might sound like stating the bleeding obvious, just take a look at how many get it very, very wrong!)
Haven't we reached a final destination with TBs, though? I can't think where they can be taken to next in terms of optimum skeletal health, respiration, etc. If we de-junk the badly-conformed, so that they don't pass on defects which are counter to best performance and are likely to cause arthritic and other conditions later, de-junk those with other known defects such as poor feet, tendency to bleed, sire wobblers, and so on, then I'd have thought we'd got the animal pretty much as far as it can go.
Speed is and will be determined by the skeleton, particularly the ability of the leg bones to take the weight of a heavily-muscled rear end, and the pelvic/hip/stifle to provide the driving mechanism.
Distance and endurance is and will be determined by heart and lung capacity, regardless of the animal's shape. KAUTO STAR shows that a relatively narrow animal isn't hampered, per se, provided it has the girth, shoulder line and is well-conformed behind.
Both types, and middle-distance specialists, too, still need an appropriate attitude or personality. It doesn't matter if you have a fizzy sprinter, provided its fizz isn't all spent in the parade ring or faffing about in the stalls. It doesn't matter if any horse has a plain head, scrawny neck, even a low-set tail (although it's often paired with sickle hocks), provided its underlying skeleton shows up in otherwise good conformation. Forget the straight-shouldered horse on upright pasterns - it's at best going to be a daisy-cutter, constrained by its poor angles, incapable of ever striding out. Going fast with short, sharp steps, yes, but that will only work on Good to Firm, and not over distance.
It's when ignorance or misguided experimentation mixes builds (or allows bad builds to breed) and functions that problems occur. Horses for courses, yes, but horses for duties, always. You must breed the right type, the right shape, the best temperament, for the job you expect it to do. (And while this might sound like stating the bleeding obvious, just take a look at how many get it very, very wrong!)
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I suspect that I'm simply going to demonstrate my ignorance here but I was struck by something in today's Racing Post. At the sales yesterday, Warning Belle, a 14-y-o mare by Warning out of Bella Colora, in foal to Authorized, fetched just 2200 guineas. Given the cost of a nomination to Authorized is this a tremendous bargain or simply an indication that something is amiss with the foal?
...yes you must try to do this (although as you say the trick is still to actually do it). However without taking chances to outcross, the breed will reach a longer-term vanishing point in which every horse in every race is by the same sire or same grand sire. It is rare these days for anything free of Northern Dancer/Sadler’s Wells to run in races like the Derby or St Leger. This is not a good thing for the breed, although the individual who wins will of course be a prime example of what a breeder is trying to achieve. These two things run counter to developing the breed for the good.
And you are quite wrong being a little bit pregnant is not at all the same as being almost certain, something that is almost certain expresses a high probability of something, while being a little bit pregnant is nonsense.
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rorydelargy
At the Start
Not an answer to the question, but a little background:
WARNING BELLE - STUD RECORD:-
1999 Desert Warning - bay colt by Mark of Esteem - won 1 race at 2 years and placed twice
2000 Present Warning - bay filly by Cadeaux Genereux - unraced
2001 Sierra - chesnut filly by Dr Fong - won 2 races and placed 5 times
2002 Code Orange - bay filly by Green Desert - won 1 race and placed 4 times
2003 Barren
2004 Dardbis- chesnut colt by Sinndar
2005 Siren Sound - bay filly by Singspiel - placed once at 3 years - retired to stud 2009
2006 George Thisby - bay colt by Royal Applause - winner and placed 5 times in 2009
2007 bay filly by Oasis Dream- foal put down
2008 b/grey filly by Act One
2009 barren to Motivator - visits Authorized l/s 3 May nif
Mare sold July 2009
Edit: She's NOT in foal, according to the sales catalogue - believed to be barren.
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The mare market was pretty selective this week and mares with poor producer records were being led out unsold or for less than £4K - which is as it should be. There were one or two more real bargains and more than one young Listed placed fillies/mares making less than £20k - a couple fo years ago they would have easily fetched three times that.
COOLMORE'S Brian Boru got his career as a jumps sire off to the best possible start when first runner won on Wednesday.
The Lucinda Russell-trained three-year-old gelding, named Bold Sir Brian, won the junior bumper at Ayr and is from the first crop of the Racing Post Trophy and St Leger-winning sire. Bred by Heinz Polleimer, he is the sixth foal out of the former Galway hurdle winner Black Queen.
The Lucinda Russell-trained three-year-old gelding, named Bold Sir Brian, won the junior bumper at Ayr and is from the first crop of the Racing Post Trophy and St Leger-winning sire. Bred by Heinz Polleimer, he is the sixth foal out of the former Galway hurdle winner Black Queen.
imagine
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I thought the mare's name rang a bell! Knew Sierra quite well as a 2yo. Her first foal, a filly by Oratorio, will be a 2yo next year. Her race record obviously not great but having seen the foal at approx two months old, I seem to remember it being quite nice. Although just because it looks ok doesn't mean it'll be any good of course!
That would explain it. Thanks.