Brexit

Brexit, Stay or Leave.

  • Stay

    Votes: 28 59.6%

  • Leave

    Votes: 19 40.4%
  • Total voters
    47
Marble said:
the fact no one can categorically give clear reasons as to benefit of leaving,
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Freedom for Britain to control its own borders?
Ability to say No Entry to millions of prospective EU passport-holding migrants (Turks, Albanians, etc) ?
Not being beholden to sometimes ridiculous European Court mandates?

Loads more reasons have been given, but I can't be arsed to list 'em. :)
 
icebreaker said:
Freedom for Britain to control its own borders?
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When I said the benefits are not clear, this is what I meant. You illustrate my point perfectly.
Have a think about your statement, it is so vague, meaningless, and two-dimensional, it just cannot be real.

We have as much control at present as any government (Conservative or Labour) can deliver.
As Phillip Hammond said earlier, its not just Europeans trying to move to Britain, its people from the entire world over, its about our economic status. So I ask you, how does us leaving Europe, then Scotland leaving us, make us less susceptible to what is essentially a global immigration crisis?
The answer is it doesn't. But your slogan about controlling our borders will be good for a future home secretary (Theresa May?) to use in years to come...
 
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Marble said:
Have a think about your statement, it is so vague, meaningless, and two-dimensional, it just cannot be real.

We have as much control at present as any government (Conservative or Labour) can deliver.
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Here now, ................................. everyone ( including the Remain camp) -- agree that exiting the Euro project will result in the tightening of border controls.
I hope that isn't too meaningless for you.
 
As someone who spent the greater part of my working life avoiding being blown up by Irishmen, I'm not inclined to take lectures on border security from that particular source.
 
Phillip Hammond stated the obvious, Archie.
I'm not sure what the troubles in Ireland have to do with it, but then I wouldn't, because I'm young, naïve and English.
I'm assuming Phillip Hammond (and me) are who you are referring to?
 
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A cheap shot, Archie. And a particularly nasty one. Had thought you were a better man than that.
Ah well, I live and learn, I guess.
 
Ice, first you said "freedom to control" our borders, now that we'll 'tighten our borders'.
A big difference between "controlling" and "tightening" in reals terms isn't there?
Each to their own though, no point in fighting over words.
I don't blame you in anyway if you're voting leave, but the risk outweighs any possible reward, imo.
 
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Marble said:
Phillip Hammond stated the obvious, Archie.
I'm not sure what the troubles in Ireland have to do with it, but then I wouldn't, because I'm young, naïve and English.
I'm assuming Phillip Hammond (and me) are who you are referring to?
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Not you but Ice. I thought he was from the Republic so I'm unsure about why he feels so involved and reacts to Remainers in such a patronising manner. It's the same with most Leavers who appear to say that it's perfectly obvious that we will be better off but don't expect me to go into detail because you probably won't understand.
As I said right at the start, because most of the prominent Leavers are chancers or nutters, I will never be persuaded by the 'trust me I'm an expert' argument.
 
Fair enough, Arch.
Ice is what you'd call a 'hard *ast***', don't take it personal!
He once misquoted me when my best mate died, stating that I'd said he was a heroin addict (when he wasn't).
That particularly hurt, but its water under a bridge now.
 
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Marble said:
Fair enough, Arch.
Ice is what you'd call a 'hard *ast***', don't take it personal!
He once misquoted me when my best mate died, stating that I'd said he was a heroin addict (when he wasn't).
That particularly hurt, but its water under a bridge now.
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To my mind, Ice is generally a sound chap but he does have a bee in his bonnet about the EU (and Hillary Clinton). Fair play, he usually puts his money where his heart is.
 
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clivex said:
sorry? I just knocked back lazy arguments that didn't even take 5 seconds of Wikipedia to counter. You embarrassed yourself

perhaps you should have like dealt with the points rather than just come up with describing them as "empty platitudes"? You think that convinces anyone

in fact there has only been one source of hot air. You have typed away and not brought up one single point that would make anyone think twice .

I said there are some positives. Try reading
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Off the top of my head, here are some reasons to think twice:

01. Free Health insurance within EU.
02. The provisions of EU Consumer Protection and H&S law.
03. European Arrest Warrant.
04. Access to and influence over the EU single-market.
05. Right of settlement anywhere within the EU.
06. Free movement of labour within the EU.
07. Climate Change leadership
08. Employment benefits
09. Potential impact on UK jobs forecast by many business and the CBI
10. Potential impact on Security forecast by several Intelligence Agency chiefs
11. Potential impact on Trade forecast by many economists
12. The potential impact on UK house prices
13. The lack of detail behind costs associated with replacing the EU with UK-equivalent agencies.
14. The threat of a second IndyRef in Scotland, and the potential for a Yes vote to succeed (a penalty-kick in the event of Brexit)



If Brexit happens, most commentators suggest we would be around £6Bn annually better-off, when we offset EU Membership fees against participation in EEA/EFTA etc. Even if we ignore other costs (e.g. replacing EU institutions with UK equivalents), that £6Bn represents about 3% of our annual Welfare spend in the UK, and is hardly therefore a material gain - not when you consider what would be lost, to make that saving. From where I'm standing, the cost of EU membership looks like one of the smarter investments we make as a country.

I'm aware of many of the EU's flaws (I'm not blind) but would much prefer to attempt to change it from within, than absorb all the risks associated with Brexit. And as I said in my original post, I think change is likely to come anyway, because even the most ardent Europhiles in Berlin, Paris and Brussels, can see that something needs to change.

Have a nice day.
 
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icebreaker said:
Here now, ................................. everyone ( including the Remain camp) -- agree that exiting the Euro project will result in the tightening of border controls.
I hope that isn't too meaningless for you.
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I believe this to be true, Frankel, but the converse would also apply. It would be a much more significant pain in there arse for anyone wishing to work, live or otherwise relocate to an EU country, than it is right now. That might be OK for soft-Southern chuggers like Clivex, with his 26C London spring sunshine, his Boris Bike, and his Lofty shorts.......but it would kybosh my plans to eventually leave the freezing, God-forsaken, shithole I currently inhabit, and move into a gites on Frontrunner's estate in the Var.
 
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5 6 and 8 norway has anyway

The rest ia pure speculation or barely of interest (health and safety ffs) . Example is house prices. On what basis exactly? You are repeatibg the dead beat trade arguments again and security is the biggest red herring of all.

Why did you bother. ?
 
Grasshopper said:
I believe this to be true, Frankel, but the converse would also apply. It would be a much more significant pain in there arse for anyone wishing to work, live or otherwise relocate to an EU country, than it is right now. That might be OK for soft-Southern chuggers like Clivex, with his 26C London spring sunshine, his Boris Bike, and his Lofty shorts.......but it would kybosh my plans to eventually leave the freezing, God-forsaken, shithole I currently inhabit, and move into a gites on Frontrunner's estate in the Var.
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Its 27 in fact down here. And i dont use a boris bike.

The only issue I'm unsure on is relocation but ... they seriously welcome our retirees. even if, like yourself, they aren't worth much and have not long to go. The southern states will not make it difficult because quite frankly they will compete. its logical

Work and living is dealt with. See Norway again
 
They aren't really dealt with though, are they, because Norway participate in Schengen, and had to sign-up to freedom of movement........the prevention of which, is one of the Leave campaign's central reasons for exiting the EU.
 
Schengen is dead. Norway currently has border controls. And it not about the right to work and live anyway.

It is not at all true that all those in favour of leaving want to prevent freedom of movement amongst the majority of the eus states.

do you own research.....
 
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Schengen is only dead in your minds-eye, and as a participant, Norway has to permit freedom of movement to EU citizens. And of course Norway has Border controls - in exactly the same way as we currently have Border controls in the UK. You can't just breeze into Heathrow without any paperwork, and expect to be let in.

Those in favour of leaving the EU might not want to prevent freedom of movement amongst the 'majority' of EU states, but this is what's referred to as wanting to have your cake, and eat it too.
 
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If that's what you really think then you're an even bigger arse than I thought.

But others will be able to follow the argument and I only got involved in this thread to point to some real facts.
 
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