Brexit

Brexit, Stay or Leave.

  • Stay

    Votes: 28 59.6%

  • Leave

    Votes: 19 40.4%
  • Total voters
    47
There were very good reasons for opposing Scottish indepdenece and stressing the arguments for keeping the uk as one. As we have seen with the oil price, all predictions went out of the window and it would have resulted in economic collapse with mass starvation to follow. It would be like the fcking Syrians and from England's point of view it's the prospect of loads of dead gingers washing up on the beach. Not very nice with the kids building sand castles and it's also a pollutant.
 
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clivex said:
That's a very limited and patronising argument. Yes some will put that as a reason but it certainly isn't the only one and not expressed in those terms. and anyway if can be demonstrated that the eu has a negative impact in certain areas then why not say so?
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Poking holes is a doddle. Finding a way to improve things - with no risk - is the hard part.

As far as the EU debate is concerned, the standard Leave response to questions raised about Brexit risks, is to bang-on about a lack of faith in Britain's ability to go it alone. The Leave argument amounts to little more than "We promise it will be better tomorrow", and I simply can't place that kind of faith in odious types like Gove, Farage, Grayling and IDS.

Exactly the same tactic was deployed by the Yessers during IndyRef, and my position is the same now as it was then - the status-quo, whilst flawed and imperfect, delivers vastly more in the way of benefit, than it does harm.

Brexit arguments would need the be massively more robust than "Have faith", before I would move from this position.
 
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Grasshopper said:
Poking holes is a doddle. Finding a way to improve things - with no risk - is the hard part.

As far as the EU debate is concerned, the standard Leave response to questions raised about Brexit risks, is to bang-on about a lack of faith in Britain's ability to go it alone. The Leave argument amounts to little more than "We promise it will be better tomorrow", and I simply can't place that kind of faith in odious types like Gove, Farage, Grayling and IDS.

Exactly the same tactic was deployed by the Yessers during IndyRef, and my position is the same now as it was then - the status-quo, whilst flawed and imperfect, delivers vastly more in the way of benefit, than it does harm.

Brexit arguments would need the be massively more robust than "Have faith", before I would move from this position.
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You can start off with lower interest rates and food prices for a start. You can count back the net contribution of billions . these are certainties.

So you are talking rubbish franklly

whats the stay argument been here the? Regional aid and not being horrible and parochial. Great.

I buy into Nigel lawsons arguments. It's not where we are now that matters but the whole future rolling out of the "project" taht is the worry. There's two parliaments and 50000 staff with nothing to do other than think of ways to meddle. Fck them off and run it super lean and we might be onto something
 
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What I really dislike and simply doesn't stand up is the attitude stated by grass that we would be better off with the eu making decisions on the economy than Westminster

Oh really. Does it need stating again that aside from honourable exceptions in sweden and Denmark the reamining states got the biggest economic decision totally wrong amd couldn't eeven monitor the bloody situation.

Both sides of the house nailed it correctly so no crap about Westminster
 
As a ex-pat now living in France ,staying in the EC is a no-brainer. Although I have both Irish and British passports I am not sure how healthcare and pensions would be affected . On the vote its self I believe the UK will stay in ( the devil you know mentality). That said if the situation was reversed and We were voting to now join the EC I would imagine the vote would be over 90% in not joining, something I thought the No campaigners would play on more.
 
Clive, nowhere have I advocated the EU acquiring economic decision-making powers over the Westminster parliament, so please stop making things up.

Cost efficiencies generated through not paying EU membership fees would, of course, be offset to an extent, by the cost of participating in the EEA. There are also other administrative costs that would accrue by dint of us being 'on the outside' - basically any function currently run at an EU-level, would need to be replicated to an extent, within a seceded UK. The problem is, no-one in the Leave camp can say with any certainty what these additional costs might be. In the absence of this detail, any claims around net-benefit are guesswork, imo, and should be treated as such.

Frontrunner makes a great point. Rather than liberating us, Brexit would shackle us; unable to move about the continent as freely as we can today. That is not a positive step, any way I look at it.
 
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Earlier in thread you said about Westminster. Shall I requote??

additional costs would be equivalent to the billions paid in now? What sort of admin do you have in mind ??? Jesus

freedom of movement emphatically doesn't need the Eu. before the eu there was complete freedom of movement between the uk and Ireland. There is no reason at all why this shouldn't continue with the moajority of states because it is very beneficial to both sides. But to me it would be the one greatest potential downside.

you don't need two parliaments, 50000 grunts and billions paid in every year to set up a simple arrangement such as that

frontrunners post is spot on when he states that few would vote to join now.
 
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Clivex, do you seriously think the EU would permit freedom of movement from the UK to Europe, whilst at the same time we denied that same priviledge to EU citizens? Fat chance.

Promoting an argument that the EU is nothing more than a governance behemoth which delivers us nothing in return for the related cost/membership-fee, is equally ignorant.

And whilst you are at it, please do go ahead and re-quote me.
 
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Yes. I would try and check some facts before you spout off

your ignorance is stunning at times, I clearly stated that freedom of movement would be bilateral .

norway has freedom of movement within the Eu. Norway is not a member of the eu

swatted away

ignorant? You haven't stated a single example of what the eu delivers, nothing at all
 
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Economic arguments aside, I have absolutely zero faith in our political class in the UK, and the argument about sovereignty doesn't wash with me - mainly because I would be horrified to think that all the decision-making would be placed in the hands of the litany of no-marks identified in Archie's post. I actually view the EU as a welcome hand-brake on some of the more unpleasant aspects of UK political leanings. And I reckon fundamental change is in the offing anyway, that will deliver some of changes that the UK wants. Those changes will be driven not by the UK, but by other EU states, who are now waking-up to the fact that the current arrangement is too fast-and-loose. There is a dawning realisation amongst even the most pro-EU states, that change has to happen, if the entire edifice isn't to come crashing down.

This is is what you said

game over

"horrified" that Westminster makes decisions auch as not joining the euro eh?

 
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The Swiss and Norwegians are part of Schengen, giving them free movement in the EU, only because EU citizens have free movement in their countries.
 
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clivex said:
Economic arguments aside, I have absolutely zero faith in our political class in the UK, and the argument about sovereignty doesn't wash with me - mainly because I would be horrified to think that all the decision-making would be placed in the hands of the litany of no-marks identified in Archie's post. I actually view the EU as a welcome hand-brake on some of the more unpleasant aspects of UK political leanings. And I reckon fundamental change is in the offing anyway, that will deliver some of changes that the UK wants. Those changes will be driven not by the UK, but by other EU states, who are now waking-up to the fact that the current arrangement is too fast-and-loose. There is a dawning realisation amongst even the most pro-EU states, that change has to happen, if the entire edifice isn't to come crashing down.

This is is what you said

game over

"horrified" that Westminster makes decisions auch as not joining the euro eh?
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Whereabouts in this post do I advocate ceding economic decision-making (which is what you have accused me of doing) to the EU?? Does the phrase "economic arguments aside...." mean anything to you?

Try paying attention to what is actually written next time, rather than what the voices in your head tell you.
 
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clivex said:
Yes. I would try and check some facts before you spout off

your ignorance is stunning at times, I clearly stated that freedom of movement would be bilateral .

norway has freedom of movement within the Eu. Norway is not a member of the eu

swatted away

ignorant? You haven't stated a single example of what the eu delivers, nothing at all
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I'm glad we've now reached your hsyterical phase, and I can say my last bit and get out of the thread.

What would be the point of listing all the positives of EU membership, merely so you can 'swat' them away with yet another hair-brained, frothing, simplistic, diatribe of empty platitudes and meaningless point-scoring? I'm rather too busy to be feeding that troll, I'm afraid.

I can understand why you have gone a little mad. You're inclined to Remain, yet have nothing whatsoever positive to say about the EU. If that's the case, why don't you just vote for Brexit if it's as bad as you have been attempting to make out, over the last few pages? Or are you all mouth and no trousers? ;)
 
Grey said:
The Swiss and Norwegians are part of Schengen, giving them free movement in the EU, only because EU citizens have free movement in their countries.
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so what. Don't tell me that Switzerland and Norway do not have border controls
 
Grasshopper said:
I'm glad we've now reached your hsyterical phase, and I can say my last bit and get out of the thread.

What would be the point of listing all the positives of EU membership, merely so you can 'swat' them away with yet another hair-brained, frothing, simplistic, diatribe of empty platitudes and meaningless point-scoring? I'm rather too busy to be feeding that troll, I'm afraid.

I can understand why you have gone a little mad. You're inclined to Remain, yet have nothing whatsoever positive to say about the EU. If that's the case, why don't you just vote for Brexit if it's as bad as you have been attempting to make out, over the last few pages? Or are you all mouth and no trousers? ;)
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sorry? I just knocked back lazy arguments that didn't even take 5 seconds of Wikipedia to counter. You embarrassed yourself

perhaps you should have like dealt with the points rather than just come up with describing them as "empty platitudes"? You think that convinces anyone

in fact there has only been one source of hot air. You have typed away and not brought up one single point that would make anyone think twice .

I said there are some positives. Try reading
 
Cameron and osbourne almost as embarrassing as grass today

whats Dave on about when he's going on about a world war? What a load of bollocks

osbourve reckons house prices will "plunge" . What? On what basis?
 
clivex said:
whats Dave on about when he's going on about a world war? What a load of bollocks
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Indeed ! Project Fear is evolving into Project Hysteria.
I think there is a greater possibility of Britain being dragged into a war by the Euro Union masters than there ever is of a exited Britain going to war on it's own.
 
icebreaker said:
Indeed ! Project Fear is evolving into Project Hysteria.
I think there is a greater possibility of Britain being dragged into a war by the Euro Union masters than there ever is of a exited Britain going to war on it's own.
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Just as on here, they cannot give good reasons to stay in so are getting desperate. . in fact i think this will contribute to brexit because it will be seen for what it is.

on Frontrunners issue of free movement there is a very good reason why nothing will change.Look at it this way. Who benefits from british expats living abroad? Rich retirees making up such a large proportion of that number?
 
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I reckon the biggest reason to want to 'stay in' is the fact no one can categorically give clear reasons as to benefit of leaving, other than purely hypothetical economic and security arguments.
Its really simple logic.
 
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