EC1
On a break
is Hardy 3 wins to RB's 0 in head to heads as well?
i know which one i think is the best hurdler
i know which one i think is the best hurdler
Champion Hurdle 2013
- Thread starter On The Bridle
- Start date
EC1
On a break
Harchibald beat him easily after RB had set hard fractions...just shows how pace shapes all races..RB looked a different horse there as did IF when ridden too hard in the CH...H looked better there than he actually was...just as RB did in the CH... just due to the pace scenario suiting him
Winning his champion hurdle or runner up in a short head in a Tote Gold Trophy in an OR 166 would have beaten that list of horses in a canter by 10 lengths
Rooster and Limestone Lad are the most underrated horses of the last 20 years
Desert Orchid
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P1sh.
They experimented with him that day and it didn't work out. How far might he have won under a normal ride but by then he had everything else he raced against trying to manipulate the tactics to get him beat rather than to win themselves.
And we go around in circles
Grade 1 horses that ran in handicaps - overrated on basis of weight carrying performance
Grade 1 horses that didn't - underrated because we don't know if they'd have done the same carrying weight
The respective camps will never agree
Grade 1 horses that ran in handicaps - overrated on basis of weight carrying performance
Grade 1 horses that didn't - underrated because we don't know if they'd have done the same carrying weight
The respective camps will never agree
EC1
On a break
lets burst another RB bubble
the Tote Gold Trophy was slowly run and didn't suit horses from off the pace..ie RB had to sprint through horses that had lots left
not true is it?
comments of the last 5 horses home in TGT:
behind from 3rd
Pressed leader until after 4th, headed 4 out, soon weakened
Narrow advantage until headed after 4th, weakened quickly
Chased leaders, challenged 4th, ridden soon after, weakened quickly 4 out
Chased leaders until weakened quickly after 4 out
just on those comments alone i would guess a strong pace
the first five home comments
Held up in rear, steady headway 4 out, tracked leaders, ridden and switched left last, strong run under pressure to lead last stride
Held up in rear, steady headway from 4 out, tracked leaders 2 out, led last, ran on gamely under pressure, caught last stride
In touch, headway to chase leaders from 3 out, every chance last, stayed on well run-in but no extra near finish
Behind, ridden and headway 2 out, strong run and hung left run-in, finished strongly, going on close home
Mid-division, headway 4 out, stayed on well from 2 out, chased leaders run-in, not quicken final 50yds
those comments confirm the last 5's comments..this race was run to suit the plodders...it was not a speed test and they didn't try to catch RB out at all..the pace was perfect for him
the Tote Gold Trophy was slowly run and didn't suit horses from off the pace..ie RB had to sprint through horses that had lots left
not true is it?
comments of the last 5 horses home in TGT:
behind from 3rd
Pressed leader until after 4th, headed 4 out, soon weakened
Narrow advantage until headed after 4th, weakened quickly
Chased leaders, challenged 4th, ridden soon after, weakened quickly 4 out
Chased leaders until weakened quickly after 4 out
just on those comments alone i would guess a strong pace
the first five home comments
Held up in rear, steady headway 4 out, tracked leaders, ridden and switched left last, strong run under pressure to lead last stride
Held up in rear, steady headway from 4 out, tracked leaders 2 out, led last, ran on gamely under pressure, caught last stride
In touch, headway to chase leaders from 3 out, every chance last, stayed on well run-in but no extra near finish
Behind, ridden and headway 2 out, strong run and hung left run-in, finished strongly, going on close home
Mid-division, headway 4 out, stayed on well from 2 out, chased leaders run-in, not quicken final 50yds
those comments confirm the last 5's comments..this race was run to suit the plodders...it was not a speed test and they didn't try to catch RB out at all..the pace was perfect for him
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
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I'vve just checked back through my ratings for the 2004 CH. I had RB miles clear and if you took him out it would be one of the worst ever CHs. It should also be noted that Hardly Useless went into the race on something like 152 and was a 66/1 overnight.
On the other hand, ORs were artificially (and correctly, imo) bumped up by something like 8lbs every other season round about that time although Phil Smith appears to have succeeded in addressing the issue and I don't think there's been any 'alignment', as it was called, for three or four seasons now.
As an aside, anyone who thinks Dawn Run was anythng better than ordinary either as a hurdler or a chaser needs to check back through the form.
On the other hand, ORs were artificially (and correctly, imo) bumped up by something like 8lbs every other season round about that time although Phil Smith appears to have succeeded in addressing the issue and I don't think there's been any 'alignment', as it was called, for three or four seasons now.
As an aside, anyone who thinks Dawn Run was anythng better than ordinary either as a hurdler or a chaser needs to check back through the form.
edgt
Senior Jockey
1.I had the great pleasure of meeting Hardys owner at Cheltenham post Champion H. He told us it takes a great horse to win a CH but an exceptional one to win two.
2.Asides can be very dangerous beasts!
She may have had mares allowance for CH and GC but is still the only double winner. She had the ability to beat Buck House over his distance and was rated 5lb shy of Burrough Hill Lad in Irish GN 1986, which was the mares allowance.
That said "The Phoenix" in The Cork Examiner shared your opinion and pages of letters were published slating him and his heresy!
A fine racing corr he was and all, RIP
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Desert Orchid
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Fair points, I concede, but the race usually involves 20+ runners and I would struggle to recall the pace every being described as anything less than very strong, but regardless of what the book says ("run at a fierce pace') it didn't look fast to me.
The last six home were also 66/1, 40/1, 33/1, 66/1 and 150/1 so were hardly expected run any better.
The 3rd, 5th and 6th raced in mid-division. Tom Paddington was 10/1 and ridden in the rear. He finished well-beaten in 19th. Hasty Prince (11/1) was also ridden in rear and never got into it. 50/1 shot Quazar chased the pace and still finished close up in fifth. It was not as fierce a pace as reported. Had Johnson ridden RB from five lengths closer, he'd have won easily. The form book comment doesn't reflect my recall. It says 'stdy hdwy fr 4 out'. I'd say he made rapid headway before hitting the front going to the last, backed up by the analysis comment 'cutting through the pack'. Geos's run was steadier, allowing him to keep just enough in reserve to get up and nose it.
EC1
On a break
i think it would stretch the imagination to think the race wasn't one that suited coming from off the pace though DO..RB was suited by that race pace to a good degree.
My argument is that he needed a virtual pace collapse to win easily in any race..and he got that in the CH in spades
you only have to look at that Kempton race to see that connections also believed he needed the pace to collapse for him to break others..the only problem is they used him to collapse the pace which worked to a degree but it didn't break Harchibald who sat way off it and probably ran even fractions
If they had run RB that hard at Cheltenham he would have finished where IF did..they got away with it at a flat track and though he was out on his legs at the end... the nature of the track helped..when you are at the end of your tether ...going uphill stops you a lot quicker than on the flat track
he may have still won the 2003 CH even without IF's help..but one thing is for sure..IF shaped the winning distances and flattered RB by dragging the whole field along at a pace that hurt every horse bar RB..you then got horses running on late..purely because they kept away from the pace
My argument is that he needed a virtual pace collapse to win easily in any race..and he got that in the CH in spades
you only have to look at that Kempton race to see that connections also believed he needed the pace to collapse for him to break others..the only problem is they used him to collapse the pace which worked to a degree but it didn't break Harchibald who sat way off it and probably ran even fractions
If they had run RB that hard at Cheltenham he would have finished where IF did..they got away with it at a flat track and though he was out on his legs at the end... the nature of the track helped..when you are at the end of your tether ...going uphill stops you a lot quicker than on the flat track
he may have still won the 2003 CH even without IF's help..but one thing is for sure..IF shaped the winning distances and flattered RB by dragging the whole field along at a pace that hurt every horse bar RB..you then got horses running on late..purely because they kept away from the pace
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Don't take this personally Desert Orchid but only a complete anorak would describe Dawn Run as ordinary.
Champion Hurdles in 3 different countries in addition to winning the main hurdles at Kempton and Aintree,winning the Gold Cup as a virtual novice while being clearly superior to the reigning champion chaser at any distance aren't something you could associate with anything other then an exceptional racehorse.
Champion Hurdles in 3 different countries in addition to winning the main hurdles at Kempton and Aintree,winning the Gold Cup as a virtual novice while being clearly superior to the reigning champion chaser at any distance aren't something you could associate with anything other then an exceptional racehorse.
I agree with EC on the pace collapse. Rooster Booster landed slightly in front of Hardy Eustace but was beaten by 5l. Just met the better horse.
Funny in comparison to Dawn Run, Rooster Booster lost to Sacundai at Aintree a month after winning the Champion Hurdle.
Funny in comparison to Dawn Run, Rooster Booster lost to Sacundai at Aintree a month after winning the Champion Hurdle.
Desert Orchid
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Best Mate won 3 Gold Cups and was ordinary. The only exceptional thing about him was that for three years he had no opposition worth speaking of.
I was a huge fan of Wayward Lad. If he had got up that hill no-one would ever have mentioned Dawn Run in the same breath as any of the greats.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Dawn Run was top class in anyone's book. Flat Hurdles fences she did it all
In her Gold Cup Wayward lad wasn't the only horse in opposition that day. I had reason to visit Mark Dwyer at his home just after that Gold Cup, standing next to his prize possession, a photo of himself and the Queen Mum when he won the race the previous year, he told me he could not believe he was beaten that day. Dawn Run had somehow found the courage, speed and stamina not only to beat him but to beat a horse with 2 King George's under her belt. Sure Wayward lad never got up the Hill but neither did Forvive and Forget who had got up the hill twice before without a problem. It wasn't the hill that beat them Dawn Run beat them out in the country by insuring they had nothing left when it came to the hill.......Gold Cups races are are over 3m2f not just from the last to the winning line.
When Jono said she was as game as a pebble he hit the nail right on the head, she had everything you'd want in a horse. The fact is she did something the brilliant duo Night Nurse and Bula both failed to do by winning both the Champion Hurdle and the Gold Cup Not only did that assure her name went up in in lights it also put her down as one of the best chasers/hurdlers in the games history. Let's not forget she only had one run and was injured in her first season.......she was practically a novice chaser when she won the race.
To even hint that she was not top class is an insult to a horse who was probably one of the best all rounders the game has ever witnessed.
In her Gold Cup Wayward lad wasn't the only horse in opposition that day. I had reason to visit Mark Dwyer at his home just after that Gold Cup, standing next to his prize possession, a photo of himself and the Queen Mum when he won the race the previous year, he told me he could not believe he was beaten that day. Dawn Run had somehow found the courage, speed and stamina not only to beat him but to beat a horse with 2 King George's under her belt. Sure Wayward lad never got up the Hill but neither did Forvive and Forget who had got up the hill twice before without a problem. It wasn't the hill that beat them Dawn Run beat them out in the country by insuring they had nothing left when it came to the hill.......Gold Cups races are are over 3m2f not just from the last to the winning line.
When Jono said she was as game as a pebble he hit the nail right on the head, she had everything you'd want in a horse. The fact is she did something the brilliant duo Night Nurse and Bula both failed to do by winning both the Champion Hurdle and the Gold Cup Not only did that assure her name went up in in lights it also put her down as one of the best chasers/hurdlers in the games history. Let's not forget she only had one run and was injured in her first season.......she was practically a novice chaser when she won the race.
To even hint that she was not top class is an insult to a horse who was probably one of the best all rounders the game has ever witnessed.
Rooster Booster was simply outstayed by Hardy Eustace. Rejuvenated by the first-time blinkers, HE not only went away from RB, but left the following pack for dead, also.
Unsurprising that RB was beaten at Aintree, as he simply didn't stay 2m 4f, never lasting home in any of his 4 attempts at the Aintree Hurdle.
Loved Rooster Booster to bits, but he was never as good a horse as Hardy Eustace, despite what the ratings say,
While I’d take your point that there were better Gold Cup winners than Best Mate, a best OR of 175 and a best RPR of 178 qualifies him a Superior winner of the Gold Cup rather than Great or Average winner of that race. He was certainly a great deal better than “ordinary” even by Gold Cup standards let alone overall. An ordinary chaser would be capable of running to only 140-150.
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Bar the Bull
At the Start
I'm with Steve on this one. Looking at the Gold Cup winners since 1991, I can only think of three that are definitely superior:
Kauto Star
Denman
Jodami
And five that are arguably superior:
The Fellow
Master Oats
Long Run
See More Business
Kicking King (I don't think the last two are superior)
And the remainder are worse:
Garrison Savannah
Cool Ground and Cool Dawn
Imperial Call
Mr. Mulligan
Looks Like Trouble
War of Attrition
Imperial Commander
Synchronised
Kauto Star
Denman
Jodami
And five that are arguably superior:
The Fellow
Master Oats
Long Run
See More Business
Kicking King (I don't think the last two are superior)
And the remainder are worse:
Garrison Savannah
Cool Ground and Cool Dawn
Imperial Call
Mr. Mulligan
Looks Like Trouble
War of Attrition
Imperial Commander
Synchronised
EC1
On a break
Steve
could you post up the RPR awarded to the last 20 GC winners when you get time?
thanks in advance
sorry for being lazy
could you post up the RPR awarded to the last 20 GC winners when you get time?
thanks in advance
sorry for being lazy
EC1
On a break
i was talking about pace collapse when RB won..not year when HE won..just for clarification