Colm Murphy
- Thread starter granger
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Diamond Geezer
Gone But Not Forgotten
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The Mullins and Elliott empires will rule all eventually won't they, unless Joseph makes a go of it ? (Ooohh controversial :lol
http://www.goracing.ie/racing-statistics/trainers/leading-trainers/
http://www.goracing.ie/racing-statistics/trainers/leading-trainers/
granger
Senior Jockey
Davy Russell said as much last week on ATR
Tough to make it pay
Tough to make it pay
granger
Senior Jockey
Anything with a sizing before it that didn't end in Europe tended to be pretty mediocre
Potts musn't have been expecting the decision either
Interested to see where he sends them all now. Jessie got the best of his horses
If Colm can't make a living out of the game, fair play to anyone who can
Potts musn't have been expecting the decision either
Interested to see where he sends them all now. Jessie got the best of his horses
If Colm can't make a living out of the game, fair play to anyone who can
Diamond Geezer
Gone But Not Forgotten
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Took this photo of Big Zeb at Navan one time
edgt
Senior Jockey
Credit to the man for always turning out his horses in tip top shape.
Art and Oran could tell you more but his facilities were top class.
He is possibly too quiet and shy in himself, mixing with owners, prospective or otherwise or having someone to do it for you is a huge part of success.
As talking olympian E P Harty sr says " You must talk to people and listen to their story to find common ground; once you find that , like the Jesuits, they are yours for life !"
A shame to see guys with both his youth and talent leaving the scene but this is where we are.
Wishing him all the very best; Cheltenham will be all the poorer without him.
Art and Oran could tell you more but his facilities were top class.
He is possibly too quiet and shy in himself, mixing with owners, prospective or otherwise or having someone to do it for you is a huge part of success.
As talking olympian E P Harty sr says " You must talk to people and listen to their story to find common ground; once you find that , like the Jesuits, they are yours for life !"
A shame to see guys with both his youth and talent leaving the scene but this is where we are.
Wishing him all the very best; Cheltenham will be all the poorer without him.
I'm not sure about top class facilities, Eddie. I remember John Francome saying after a visit to Murphy's yard that he was amazed how well he had done with such limited facilities compared with the likes of Henderson, O'Neill, Knight etc. He has a 3f all weather gallop, a circular sand gallop and a few hurdles and fences.
I agree about his shyness. I think he was reluctant, with us syndicate people at any rate, to say anything which might be interpreted as a belief our horse would win, the fear being that we might take it badly if there was disappointment. Mind you he might have been right to be that way with one or two people in our ranks.
Another remark sometimes made about him was that his chasers kept falling. I think Zaarito, who fell four times in his novice season, had a lot to do with this but maybe a stats person could tell us more.
But there's no doubt he's a very talented handler who did great things in a short career. He was still a rookie when he got Brave Inca and handled both the horse and himself so well.
And I'm personally very grateful to him for looking after Raise The Beat free of charge for us during the long period when he was on the easy list before his last two runs in 2015. Unfortunately his gesture didn't pay off and Razor's tendon went again but we all knew what we were up against.
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pdleech
Apprentice
The issue of how trainers make it pay has been on my mind this week, even before Colm Murphy’s announcement. Most trainers would tell you that there’s no money to be made from training and it’s only through buying and selling (or the occasional gamble) that any money can be made. I felt a little guilty that, after Bay of Freedom won a 14000 Euro race last week, Peter (Fahey) only got 625 Euros. I guess I could always offer to ‘supplement’ this return but the fact is that, even after two wins this year, I am still making a loss. Now, I have no complaints about that but it is a strange business when both owners and trainers are set up to make losses. This got me thinking about how much Willie Mullins must be making and so using a combination of insight, ignorance , guesswork and instinct I came up with the following assessment of the profitability of Mullins and Co. (All figures in Euros – and apologies for having no Euro key)
I am sure there will be many who disagree with some of the assumptions shown. I have, if anything, tried to be conservative and understate some of the costs. However, I do think it is directionally accurate and highlights some issues.
In the 2015/16 Jump Season, Mullins horses accumulated prize money totaling 5.6m across England and Ireland. Add to that another 300 in flat earnings and his total prize money was 5.919m; this would have yielded c414k to the trainer.
(Note – I have ignored any winnings in France or overseas)
Over this period he ran 191 horses; let’s assume daily training fees of 55 euros and ‘at grass’ daily fees of 20 euros. If we assume each horse is in training for 250 days (at grass the other days) then this this works out to around 16k per year for each of these horses. Let’s also assume he has another 50 horses not in training at all and they are just charged out at the ‘at grass’ rate. The training fees generated would be around 3.356m.
The total income would therefore be 3.770m
I am assuming, for the purpose of this exercise, that additional costs (gallop fees, vet fees, travel, medication, shoes etc etc) are charged separately and at no mark-up .
So that’s the income; what about the costs?
Regular feed (hay , nuts, regular supplements etc) are included in the training fee. Let’s say these would be 40 euros per horse per week; this would total 501k per year.
Staff would be the biggest single expense. Let’s assume each lad/lass has four horses then there would be 60 lads. Assuming they are paid 400 per week plus overtime and employer taxes (the minimum is 380 Euros for a 39 hour week) then the annual cost would be 1.807m. (As an aside is 400 Euros per week sustainable?)
In addition, he would need foremen, head lads, pupil assistants, gallops managers, maintenance staff, admin staff. I have assumed 15 Full Time Equivalents and let’s say they cost an average of 50k per FTE per year; this would be another 750k.
Add to all of this the costs of replacing gallops, repairs and general maintenance as well as replacement of machinery and facilities ; this could easily be another 200k.
These costs total 3.258m and when compared to the 3.77m income would deliver a ‘profit’ of just over 511k. Of course, there is big cost missing in this analysis: Willie Mullins needs to be paid!
How much would you pay the best and most successful exponent in one of Ireland’s biggest industries? I don’t think $400k is out of the question. So, once Mullins has taken appropriate draw for his work, if the above numbers are anywhere near close, he would have barely broken even in a year when all prize money and number of winners records were not just broken but destroyed.
You remember that I assumed Mullins charges 60 Euros per day when in training and 20 Euros when ‘at grass’? Well, Peter Fahey charges 35 and 12 Euros respectively. My fear isn’t that Peter increases his rates but that he doesn’t come to the same conclusion as Colm Murphy and leaves the training ranks himself. I should stress that nothing in our conversations would have you believe anything other than he will stay training and that is driven in large part because of his passion. However, I am sure Colm Murphy had passion and the horse racing industry needs to find a solution; it cannot be subsidized by owners and trainers both losing money. That is not a model for a sustainable business
I am sure there will be many who disagree with some of the assumptions shown. I have, if anything, tried to be conservative and understate some of the costs. However, I do think it is directionally accurate and highlights some issues.
In the 2015/16 Jump Season, Mullins horses accumulated prize money totaling 5.6m across England and Ireland. Add to that another 300 in flat earnings and his total prize money was 5.919m; this would have yielded c414k to the trainer.
(Note – I have ignored any winnings in France or overseas)
Over this period he ran 191 horses; let’s assume daily training fees of 55 euros and ‘at grass’ daily fees of 20 euros. If we assume each horse is in training for 250 days (at grass the other days) then this this works out to around 16k per year for each of these horses. Let’s also assume he has another 50 horses not in training at all and they are just charged out at the ‘at grass’ rate. The training fees generated would be around 3.356m.
The total income would therefore be 3.770m
I am assuming, for the purpose of this exercise, that additional costs (gallop fees, vet fees, travel, medication, shoes etc etc) are charged separately and at no mark-up .
So that’s the income; what about the costs?
Regular feed (hay , nuts, regular supplements etc) are included in the training fee. Let’s say these would be 40 euros per horse per week; this would total 501k per year.
Staff would be the biggest single expense. Let’s assume each lad/lass has four horses then there would be 60 lads. Assuming they are paid 400 per week plus overtime and employer taxes (the minimum is 380 Euros for a 39 hour week) then the annual cost would be 1.807m. (As an aside is 400 Euros per week sustainable?)
In addition, he would need foremen, head lads, pupil assistants, gallops managers, maintenance staff, admin staff. I have assumed 15 Full Time Equivalents and let’s say they cost an average of 50k per FTE per year; this would be another 750k.
Add to all of this the costs of replacing gallops, repairs and general maintenance as well as replacement of machinery and facilities ; this could easily be another 200k.
These costs total 3.258m and when compared to the 3.77m income would deliver a ‘profit’ of just over 511k. Of course, there is big cost missing in this analysis: Willie Mullins needs to be paid!
How much would you pay the best and most successful exponent in one of Ireland’s biggest industries? I don’t think $400k is out of the question. So, once Mullins has taken appropriate draw for his work, if the above numbers are anywhere near close, he would have barely broken even in a year when all prize money and number of winners records were not just broken but destroyed.
You remember that I assumed Mullins charges 60 Euros per day when in training and 20 Euros when ‘at grass’? Well, Peter Fahey charges 35 and 12 Euros respectively. My fear isn’t that Peter increases his rates but that he doesn’t come to the same conclusion as Colm Murphy and leaves the training ranks himself. I should stress that nothing in our conversations would have you believe anything other than he will stay training and that is driven in large part because of his passion. However, I am sure Colm Murphy had passion and the horse racing industry needs to find a solution; it cannot be subsidized by owners and trainers both losing money. That is not a model for a sustainable business
Diamond Geezer
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Only a small point, and not necessarily relevant , but I think his lads and lasses might "do" six horses each, I know Jessica's do.
Diamond Geezer
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Meant to say Tommy Stack's retiring at the end of the season too, albeit his son is taking over.
pdleech
Apprentice
You're right DG and it is relevant. On reflection may have understated no. of horses/lad but also may have understated FTE's. It's still a poor return for such a successful yard and just makes you wonder how everyone else gets by. On a related note, it's alright to make money out of buying and selling horses (to supplement money from training) but it's ultimately a zero-sum game so there will be as many losers as winners.
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redundant pal
Apprentice
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Fozzy has been the de facto trainer for a number of years now.
Tommy took a back seat when his hearing went. A very nice man.
Sad to see Colm Murphy going also - a very good trainer of a bumper horse.
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granger
Senior Jockey
Nice post pdleech
Some interesting ideas raised.
Im good friends with a trainer/breeder of P2P horses. He has told me that he trains horses to break even at absolute best but has profited in breeding and selling on after a point.
The nature of the beast
Some interesting ideas raised.
Im good friends with a trainer/breeder of P2P horses. He has told me that he trains horses to break even at absolute best but has profited in breeding and selling on after a point.
The nature of the beast
pdleech
Apprentice
pdleech
Apprentice
Thanks for the detailed reply, Paul. To put your figures in context, some trainers in England were already charging £20,000 ten years ago, so I think it's fair to say Peter Fahey is not overcharging you.
Presumably what Colm Murphy meant when mentioning his accountancy background is that a lot of trainers only look at running costs and don't take account of the full amount of capital sunk in their land, stables and other assets when assessing their operations.
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pdleech
Apprentice
Agreed Grey (and if I implied I thought Peter was overcharging then that was most certainly not my intention)
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
To put costs in the UK & Ireland into perspective you can have a horse in training with somebody I consider to be a top trainer with top facilities in Central Europe, who also has regular winners (including in top handicaps) in France for 16 Euro's per day, costs are about 250 Euro's per run (travel etc.) per run in France.
granger
Senior Jockey
frontrunner
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I believe Black Zambezi at Gowan Park today is his last runner, one of Oran,s as well. It was a pleasure having a few shares in horses with him, always a gentleman and I wish him all the best in the future.