Constitution Hill

Tanlic said:
State Man is kicking 160+ horses into touch and you could bet your life if it wasn't for Constitution Hill being around he'd be rated 5 lbs higher and be hailed the next comimg.
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Which 160+ horses is he 'kicking into touch', Tanlic? IEP? He's just rated 160 and SM only gave him a 4lbs(+) beating. I accept it's possible IEP is better than 160 but there's headroom forthat in State Man's rating.

It's only a couple of enthusiastic fans of the horse that are bumming him up but, to be fair to them, even they aren't suggesting he's the second coming. He's obviously very good and would be odds-on without CH in the picture but I don't believe SM's official rating is compressed because CH's is.


Tanlic said:
The horse has won 8 Group 1's Rooster won the grand total of one and apart from 2 rivals the horses he beat into 2nd were sub 150 horses.
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I don't deny that but they are completely different types. RB was a very late developer so never really got the chance to shine in his younger days because he was running every week in the Saturday handicaps. Would State Man win a Schweppes off 167? I'd like to see him try.

I also argued at the time that some of his performances on the clock were off the scale and among the reasons I was so keen on him back then..

Tanlic said:
I don't know which horses you think would have wona champion hurdle but went chasing. Sprinter Sacre is one but apart from him you could argue Altior
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Sprinter maybe (didn't win the Supreme), Altior and Shishkin definitely. Douvan and Vautour as well.

Tanlic said:
IMVHO Rooster Booster isn't worth a mention when it comes to the best Champion Hurdlers but get a huge plus as the worst.
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If we talk about the best Champion Hurdlers as the likes of Night Nurse, Istabraq, See You Then, etc, then yes, RB isn't in that class. But he was a very solid low-mid-170s hurdler at his peak and a lot better than many past winners that perhaps got more praise in the media and among racing fans.
 
Altior would never have beaten Buvi who only ran in the Supreme to get experience.
Shishkin would have to have beaten Honeysuckle??? NO chance
Douvan I will give you but Vautour i give you a huge minus. He ran in the Golden Miller 2m4f while Un Des Sceuax was winning the Arkle 2m
Vautour would have thought he'd gone into orbit in a Champion Hurdle:)

Roster Booster was hardly a late developer I don't get that..he won nothing after he won his CH.
 
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Hendo said of both Altior and Sihshkin that they'd have won the Champion Hurdle.

I had to throw out my old form stuff when I downsized a couple of years back but still have some of my figures for them in my documents archive. so I know I had Altior on 164 going INTO his Supreme Hurdle. Shishkin was 157(+p).

Over the years I tend to use 155 as a marker for a potential winner of the Supreme (with the likelihood of them going on to be 165 hurdlers the following season. That makes them potential placers in the Champion Hurdle. So Altior was already bordering on Champion Hurdle class as a novice.

With the growing dominance of Willie Mullins, he appears to have raised the bar for novices. I'm now looking at 157/158+ nowadays. (I've backed one such horse already for the Supreme.)

It's the same with the juveniles. Unless they were historically under-rated the bar has been raised enormously.

I recall back in the day being heavily into Katarino ante-post for the Triumph because it had posted a figure of 142. Such a rating wouldn't have a sniff of the Triumph these days.

The pity is those 155+ novices generally aren't going on to the Champion Hurdle but Constitution Hill is a proper exception.I had him on 173+p for winning the Supreme and, for me, that made him a 183 second-season hurdler waiting to happen.

These were my figures going into last year's race (clearly over-rated ILTMI!!):

[TABLE="width: 320"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD]Horse
[/TD]
[TD]MON
[/TD]
[TD]Notes
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Constitution Hill
[/TD]
[TD]186
[/TD]
[TD]+
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] I Like To Move It
[/TD]
[TD]174
[/TD]
[TD]+p
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] State Man
[/TD]
[TD]167
[/TD]
[TD]+
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Not So Sleepy
[/TD]
[TD]161
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Vauban
[/TD]
[TD]160
[/TD]
[TD]p
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Zanahiyr
[/TD]
[TD]159
[/TD]
[TD]166?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Jason The Militant
[/TD]
[TD]157
[/TD]
[TD]?
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]



I also wrote:

I’ve been looking forward to this race since last year’s Supreme! Constitution Hill is more than living up to his billing as a star and is probably the best hurdler ever.
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I was a wee bit disappointed that Nico gave him an easy race but I suppose when you see the likes of A Plus Tard, Minella Indo and many others don't really come back from a very hard race he was looking after him with the future in mind. Isty was never really asked a serious question either.

As for RB being a late developer, he was rated only 138 thirteen months before his Champion Hurdle win when a seemingly exposed Saturday handicapper who was second in the Schweppes under a 7lbs claimer, effectively taking his rating down to 131. He got a hike for the Schweppes and won the County off 144. Then his form took off so he was rising nine when he beat Mr Cool in the November of the following season. That was when I started the big thread about his chances. Wouldn't you say that showed him to be a late developer?
 
Tanlic said:
Altior would never have beaten Buvi who only ran in the Supreme to get experience.
Shishkin would have to have beaten Honeysuckle??? NO chance
Douvan I will give you but Vautour i give you a huge minus. He ran in the Golden Miller 2m4f while Un Des Sceuax was winning the Arkle 2m
Vautour would have thought he'd gone into orbit in a Champion Hurdle:)

Roster Booster was hardly a late developer I don't get that..he won nothing after he won his CH.
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Vautour won a Supreme Novices with his head in his chest, you arse.
 
granger said:
Owners are pretty much "powerless"

yes they pay the bills, purchase the animal, have legal title.

History shows that it rarely looks good on an owner if they move horses around. Trainers call the shots and with a long history between them, poor Mr Buckley is also toeing the line
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Someone wiser than me once said trainers are better at training owners than they are horses!
 
I have a dog. I don't bark myself because he's better at it than I am.

Most owners have a similar attitude to their trainer(s). It tends to be (losing) punters who think they can do a better job.
 
I'm not sure people debating Constitution Hill has anything to do with them being losing punters.

More generally I accept pocket talk can be silly.

I wanted JPR One in the Grand Annual, until earlier today, when Tizzard decided to state he would go for the Arkle, not because I've lost money of course, but because the horse has the best chance of winning in the Grand Annual, and not the bleeding Arkle!

I guess finishing third or fourth in the Arkle is quite appealing to some.
 
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archie said:
I have a dog. I don't bark myself because he's better at it than I am.

Most owners have a similar attitude to their trainer(s). It tends to be (losing) punters who think they can do a better job.
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I think you are missing the point.
 
I remember seeing Noel Meade the morning Giggi told him Road To Riches was running in Ryanair Chase and not Gold Cup.
Not a pleasant sight for sure.
WPM was consoling him but you could nearly see in his eyes that no owner would do that to him; aftereffects of Mrs Hill on his family perhaps.
 
Tanlic said:
Altior would never have beaten Buvi who only ran in the Supreme to get experience.
Shishkin would have to have beaten Honeysuckle??? NO chance
Douvan I will give you but Vautour i give you a huge minus. He ran in the Golden Miller 2m4f while Un Des Sceuax was winning the Arkle 2m
Vautour would have thought he'd gone into orbit in a Champion Hurdle:)

Roster Booster was hardly a late developer I don't get that..he won nothing after he won his CH.
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That is bollocks:D

Altior made him look like a tree in the Supreme, the next season they both went novice chasing and Henderson told JP you'd better go back over hurdles because your not winning the Arkle

Altior was different class to BVD, the 2 CH's he won were **ss poor renewals
 
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It was common knowledge that Buvi wasn't anywhere near the finished article in the Supreme and was very easy to back.

JP bought him to go chasing but soon that changed as chasing never suited him.

He went on to win 10 class 1 hurdle races including 2 Champion hurdle and was very unlucky not to have won a 3rd one which JP won with the unconsidered Espoir d'Allen.

The winner of 17 races he was calls act over hurdle.

MTOY was a Champion Hurdle specialist having finished 2nd to Jezki, Annie Power and Buvi so I suppose they must have been pizz poor renwals also
and Willie Mullins said Melon was one of the best he had ever trained and had a huge future ahead of him.
Unfortunately he took a crashing fall in the Punchestown Champion Hurdle and got involved in a barging match in his nest race and was never the same horse again



Here's one you can put in your pipe and smoke it.

You insinuate Buvi wasn't a chaser and I agree with that.

However he did beat Cloudy Dream in a common canter in his last Chase before going on to win the Champion Hirdle.

In the meantime Altior and Charbel were locked together in a ding dong battle with the latter holding the advantage when he fell 2 out.
Nico never eased up and in the end won easily enough.

I am trying to remember which horse finished 2nd:whistle:........

oh I got it is was the same horse the useless chaser Buvi easily kicked into touch a few races back over fences Cloudy Dream:D
 
Tanlic said:
It was common knowledge that Buvi wasn't anywhere near the finished article in the Supreme and was very easy to back.

JP bought him to go chasing but soon that changed as chasing never suited him.

He went on to win 10 class 1 hurdle races including 2 Champion hurdle and was very unlucky not to have won a 3rd one which JP won with the unconsidered Espoir d'Allen.

The winner of 17 races he was calls act over hurdle.

MTOY was a Champion Hurdle specialist having finished 2nd to Jezki, Annie Power and Buvi so I suppose they must have been pizz poor renwals also
and Willie Mullins said Melon was one of the best he had ever trained and had a huge future ahead of him.
Unfortunately he took a crashing fall in the Punchestown Champion Hurdle and got involved in a barging match in his nest race and was never the same horse again



Here's one you can put in your pipe and smoke it.

You insinuate Buvi wasn't a chaser and I agree with that.

However he did beat Cloudy Dream in a common canter in his last Chase before going on to win the Champion Hirdle.

In the meantime Altior and Charbel were locked together in a ding dong battle with the latter holding the advantage when he fell 2 out.
Nico never eased up and in the end won easily enough.

I am trying to remember which horse finished 2nd:whistle:........

oh I got it is was the same horse the useless chaser Buvi easily kicked into touch a few races back over fences Cloudy Dream:D
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Cloudy Dream gave 8 pounds to BD, for a 3 and a half length beating. Charbel never won a Grade 1 chase, so is not a yardstick. Altior took them all on, and was never beaten at his best. He won a Surpreme by 7 lengths, thrashing the very highly-rated Min. Of course he would have won a CH.

None of them would have beaten Constitution Hill, on last year’s showing, though. Let’s be happy with that.
 
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I backed Mr Glass at the point to point I went to yesterday and got 6-4 on his first run Pointing. Now trained by Will Biddick but owned by Nichols, I thought it was generous given he’d come third in the Tolworth Hurdle to CH in ‘22 only beaten 18 lengths. He won nicely and it will be interesting to see where he goes next.
 
jinnyj said:
I backed Mr Glass at the point to point I went to yesterday and got 6-4 on his first run Pointing. Now trained by Will Biddick but owned by Nichols, I thought it was generous given he’d come third in the Tolworth Hurdle to CH in ‘22 only beaten 18 lengths. He won nicely and it will be interesting to see where he goes next.
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Your in box is full again Jin.
 
Compare and contrast. Once of the horese has an asset value of ~€1M, the other ~€40M.

“I personally wouldn’t want to be going there in a fortnight’s time for an away game. It's always in favour of the home team. El Fabiolo was going to come (to Ascot) this week but he doesn’t seem keen to come next weekend and he’s obviously not going to come the weekend after because he’s got a home game. Why would we want an away game when we don’t actually need one?”

with


“I suppose with Auguste Rodin this year we are going to start off probably in Dubai (March 30), then he might come back to the Curragh for the Tattersalls (Gold Cup), then he could go to Ascot for the Prince of Wales’s. Then after that it is possible we could have a look at dirt and see what happens because when we cantered him on the dirt at the Breeders’ Cup he was loving it.”
 
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As David Elsworth said “It used to be all about winning. Now it’s all about not losing.” And that is spot on.
 
jinnyj said:
As David Elsworth said “It used to be all about winning. Now it’s all about not losing.” And that is spot on.
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Not true for many trainers, I'd have thought.

Nicholls and Skelton don't seem to mind too much if something just happens to be better and those further down the food chain tend to just accept that they're just running for places if the big yards are represented.
 
The trainers of the class horses are shi*t-scared of getting beat, and the trainers of the smart horses are shi*t-scared of getting handicapped out of prize-money.

Cowardice is the over-riding approach in UK racing. No wonder we are routinely fu*cked by more battle-hardened Irish horses at the Cheltenham Festival.
 
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What on earth are you talking about Grassie..As we say in Scotland "You just opening your gob and let your belly rumble" :lol:

Honestly what battle hardened Irish horses?
Marine National 2 runs
El fabiolo 2 runs
Gallopin Des Champs 3 Runs
Honeysuckle 2 runs
Impaire Passe 2 runs
Energymene 3 runs
Delta 1 Run
Evoi Allen 2 Runs
Seddon 2 runs

Only 3 winners had 4 runs 3 were questionable handicappers and Sire De Berlais.

They are no different than UK trainers and 2 r 3 runs is what they have pre Cheltenham

Constutution Hill had 2 and would have had 2 or even 3 this season had the weather not fcked things up
 
No surprise you focus on the simplistic ‘runs per season’ metric, Tanlic, but Quality also counts, and Irish horses heading into the Festival - in my view - run in more competitive events against better horses, than many of their UK counterparts.

It’s my contention that Irish horses head to the Festival simply better prepared for the battle than UK horses. Of course, they may simply have better horses, but for the large part, they are getting to the Festival ready to run absolutely to their best possible rating. By comparison, UK trainers seem to have many more fancied horses completely blow-out, and there must be a reason for that.

Maybe I’m arguing a different point here. I confess I was a bit tonto’d when I made my original post. :lol::whistle:
 
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