Constitution Hill

Desert Orchid said:
As of the other day, Timeform's top hurdlers:

177pCONSTITUTION HILL
167STATE MAN
163TEAHUPOO
162IMPAIRE ET PASSE
161SIRE DU BERLAIS
160IRISH POINT
160VAUBAN
159BOB OLINGER
159FLOORING PORTER
158SHARJAH
158§COMMANDER OF FLEET

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You're right, definitely nothing much about with most of the above being stayers, which probably allows scope for last season's better novices to come through into contention for second- or third-best but just about all bar Impaire Et Passe have gone chasing.

The latter has still to make his 10lbs' improvement into his second season and I just wonder if they have the County in mind for him off 160 (maybe less after the other day). The top weight in the Betfair Hurdle (£87k to the winner) is rated 142 so Impaire Et Passe could get in off 158 - maybe - and anything rated 132 (assuming 12-0 is top weight) or less, ie half the Betfair field in terms of numbers, would be out of the weights but I reckon there will be a dozen Irish in it so those lower-rated horses wouldn't get a run anyway.

I don't think we're guilty of over-hyping CH. All the figures point to an unusually high class animal. We don't doubt the figures when GDC posts 180+ over fences. Why should we question them when they point to greatness?
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Impaire Et Passe looks set to head straight to the Aintree Hurdle in April after being scratched from both the Champion Hurdle and the Stayers’ Hurdle at next month’s Cheltenham Festival.

With connections of the opinion he requires a step back up in distance but that a first foray over three miles in the Stayers’ Hurdle would be a step too far, Impaire Et Passe will not be in action at the showpiece meeting in the Cotswolds in five weeks.

Anthony Bromley, racing manager for owners Simon Munir and Isaac Souede, said: “The feeling after Daryl (Jacob) rode him the other day was that we need to keep him to two and a half miles and there isn’t a two-and-a-half-mile race at Cheltenham. We’ll wait for Aintree and see if we can get him sparkling again.

“We don’t feel he’s reached the form that he was showing last year, so the idea is to wait for Aintree and if he’s not sparkling going into Aintree we’ll just wait for novice chasing next season.
 
Tanlic said:
Been looking back at the Schweppes Gold Trophy and how much the race has changed.

Persian War hold the weight carrying record but he wasn't carrying top weight. Sempervivum carried 12st 2lb Hill House 21st1lb Black Justice 12st0lb.

He went of 2nd fav behind Coral Diver fav for the up and coming Champion Hurdle and won giving Major Rose 11st 8lb 6 lbs by 1/2 length with Sempervivum who split Salmon Spray and Flyingbolt in the Champion Hurdle 2 years earlier 2 lengths back in 3rd.

With others like Kirriesmuir and Even Keel runners the period read like a who's who.

This year if Constutution Hill carried 11st13lb he would have to give 33 lbs to the next in line 9st8lbs who would have struggled to get a run in 1968.
If we throw in Stateman he would be giving the next in line 23lbs.

It begs the question is he as good as we think he is? I am as guilty as anyone for hyping him up but the evidence is enough to be asking the question

Take Constitution Hill out of the equation and we are currently left with the worst bunch of 2 mile hurdlers in years (Novices aside)

Try and find 5 decent 2 mile hurdlers and you will struggle big time.
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It's become a pitiable shadow if its former self.

Top-rated this weekend is 142. It's £88K to the winner, which is only £7K less than for finishing second in a Champion Hurdle. It's pathetic, really.
 
And we might not even have a maximum field for it.

The chances are Betfair will either withdraw from sponsorship or reduce it. Wasn't this race worth about £250k a few years ago?

Maybe we need a new sponsor who will put up that kind of money, then we might get the classier types targeting it again. This renewal is a modest Class 2 Saturday handicap but at least a few of them will have been plotted up for a year or two so it should be form worth following, which might be its saving grace.

Edit

Looks like £150k has been the ceiling for some time. Then again, £150k, which was the prize as far back as 2010, would be worth some way more than that today even allowing for stagnancy in the economy over many of those years.

What Ladbroke/Coral have done for the Hennessy and Randox have done for the Grand National in massively increasing the sponsorship is what this race now needs. If I won the Euromillions I'd do it myself!
 
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barjon said:
I don’t think it’s media hype with Constitution Hill. I’ve never heard trainers so strong in throwing up their hands as to their chances. Even Mullins the other day after State Man run.
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WM reckons State Man's the best hurdler he's trained,which tells its own story.
 
barjon said:
I don’t think it’s media hype with Constitution Hill. I’ve never heard trainers so strong in throwing up their hands as to their chances. Even Mullins the other day after State Man run.
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I agree with you I just wondered what others think. We actually don't need 6 Honeysuckles to test Constitution Hill 1 State Man is enough.

State Man is now on 169 OR 2lbs less than Timeform so an improvment on last year could see Constitution Hill getting a 180 OR which would put him withing shooting distance of Night Nurse

We live in hope
 
No he didn't, Fist!
It's possible he was referring to his hurdling technique, but he most definitely said he was the best he'd had.
 
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granger said:
It will be better for racing to see CH beaten and a line drawn under conservative race planning. Discuss
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Unless I am misunderstanding you that's like saying it would have been better for racing if Arkle had never become a legend.

Racing hero's are what keep racegoers interested. Where would be without the likes of Kauto Star, Srinter Sacre and Constitution Hill to brighten up our days
 
Tanlic said:
Unless I am misunderstanding you that's like saying it would have been better for racing if Arkle had never become a legend.

Racing hero's are what keep racegoers interested. Where would be without the likes of Kauto Star, Srinter Sacre and Constitution Hill to brighten up our days
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Arkle was beaten. It hasn't tarnished his legend one iota.

I'd like to see CH run more than three times a year but it's never going to happen until Nicky gives up the bottle.
 
Outsider said:
What exactly has State man beaten?

Constitution Hill is way and beyond the others.
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Lol, definitely, this has to be a troll!!

I'll turn the question around for you....if Stateman has beaten nothing and is an ordinary yoke, what exactly has the great one beaten.

It's not always about the opposition, a performance can be brilliant regardless of the opposition.
 
Tanlic said:
Unless I am misunderstanding you that's like saying it would have been better for racing if Arkle had never become a legend.

Racing hero's are what keep racegoers interested. Where would be without the likes of Kauto Star, Srinter Sacre and Constitution Hill to brighten up our days
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The opposite in fact
 
But Kauto, Sprinter Sacre and Arkle didn’t totally scare away the opposition in all of their races. I know that Arkles Gold Cups had very few runners but at least we had a horse like Mill House running against him who, had it not been for Himself, would have been regarded as the standout horse of his generation.
 
Outsider said:
What exactly has State man beaten?

Constitution Hill is way and beyond the others.
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In his defense he's beaten everything around and if it wasn't for the fact Constitution Hill existed what do you think they would be saying about him?

At the risk of repeating myself since he joined Willie Mullins but for the fact he fell first time up and ran 2nd in the Champion Hurdle to Constitution Hill he would be 12 from 12 including 9 grade 1's

He would also be favourite to win a second Champion Hurdle........exactly how do you think people would be rating him if Constitution Hill did not exist?

Have you forgotten he kicked Honeysuckle into touch with absolute ease?

In my book he's as good as Buveur d'Air Binocular or Faugheen and somewhere between them and Hurricane Fly which would make him approx a 173 horse.
 
I haven't done my figures yet but I'd be in the same ball park for State Man.

He's obviously very good and would be a shoo-in without Constitution Hill.

173 would put State Man in very decent company, historically. Probably on a par with Rooster Booster at his best :p
 
Re whether Mullins has said/thinks State Man is the best he's had, this is a quote from his latest stable tour (via RTV):

He doesn't have the same Pizzazz (sic) as Faugheen or the speed that Hurricane Fly had, but he has the consistency, both on track and at home, and hopefully we can turn the tables on Constitution Hill.

That's all very contradictory, imo. Neither Faugheen nor Hurricane Fly, even at their very best, would get a sniff of CH's hole, yet they're hoping to turn the tables on something rated miles ahead of either?

State Man is entitled to have improved a good bit from last year but so is Constitution Hill.
 
"He doesn’t have the pizzazz of Faugheen, or the speed of Hurricane Fly, but he has other things. He jumps well and he's so consistent so hopefully we can turn the tables this year. I don’t know if we’re better but we’re stronger"

Is the quote from the Racing Post and needs to be read in the context of the full conversation, he actually dismisses the idea of comparing former Champions, just before that quote.
 
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