Coral Eclipse
- Thread starter Aragorn
- Start date
Gh certainly does not suffer from comparispn with sts at respective stages of career so if someone takes the view that he prove to be better still then I see no problem with that at all
EC1
On a break
gh showed from race 1 he was something decent..all he has done since then has enhance that..some people have been late catching on
. Same with Jack Hobbs..the soft gits with stopwatches and eyes knew he was above average after one run on that surface that many people still look down on. You don't really need a horse to run numerous times before potential is spotted to be fair.i have him now as 129 ish animal...so he has some lbs yet to catch STS...and is miles behind Frankel from a ratings perspective...but that still makes him a very good horse. I think he will remain unbeaten whatever path they take him..which in itself is an achievement.
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I suppose you're right, so long as you think a Feilden stakes win is on a par with winning the Guineas
EC1
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judging horses on which races they win to judge ability level wouldn't that accurate though really...as much as many people hate them..ratings measure ability..races aren't yardsticks ..if they were then Best Mate would be the best chaser since Arkle as he won 3 gold cups
EC1
On a break
i understand the significance
but what if Camelot had won the Leger..would you say he was a better horse than STS?..having won at 8 + 12 + 14& change..a wider range than STS.
on your race distance/level criterion he was better..ratings wise STS better
also using that criterion Frankel isn't the best we have seen..only won top races at 8+10
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Euronymous
Senior Jockey
EC1
On a break
correct
EC1
On a break
yes..i understand that..you have stated exactly my reason why which races a horse wins doesn't make them a better horse
ratings take into account what a horse achieves in a given year against the oppo he runs against..just using races doesn't measure that
ie..my best mate argument
its Grey you should be quoting..its he who is stating races over ratings..not i
Stupid comment ,.....as predictable
point clearly is that th has easily put away a subsequent easy Derby winner. Blindingly obvious that that is not easily ignored and not something achieved by sts at this stage of his career.
why gh supposedly cannot be "mentioned in same breath " with such an impeccable and dominant record to date is beyond me. It's nonsense
The original point I made was that it was arrogant and one eyed to dismiss a view that believes something better has been seen when the formbook certainly doesn't destroy that opinion
its not necessarily my view and sts was one of my best bets ever but there is every chance that gh will prove at least his equal
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Fame And Glory, STS's Epsom victim, won the IRish Derby by 5 lenghts. If you can't be civil at least try and stick to the facts
EC1, I respect your approach and would always listen to your opinion before having a bet.
On the other hand I don't think the achievements of a horse can always be distilled into a single number. Winning at the top level over three different trips, and maintaining that level of form all season long, are elements that can't be captured in a rating.
Golden Horn is high class, no doubt about it, and I hope he continues to impress us.
On the other hand I don't think the achievements of a horse can always be distilled into a single number. Winning at the top level over three different trips, and maintaining that level of form all season long, are elements that can't be captured in a rating.
Golden Horn is high class, no doubt about it, and I hope he continues to impress us.
EC1
On a break
I don't think there is anything silly in what Grey says tbh.
I love my ratings..but i also love a horse that can win when everything isn't in his favour. The similarity between STS and GH is that its a reverse distance similarity. STS was very strong at 10 but could still beat his contemparies at 12..GH looks to me now to be a 12f horse that can beat his contemparies at 10..but you could clearly see that his superiority was in the last furlong and that he is better at longer. Then again..in a tue pace 10..he would probably beat anything around at that distance.
Its an argument that can't be answered really...superiority ..as in total dominance at 1 or two distances..or just better than oppo at 3 distances..hard to quantify
i just enjoy very good hosses..GH is a very good horse..who maybe a really good horse at 12..that can also win top races at 10...one we will remember for years.
EC1
On a break
so you would then need ratings to answer those questions...so we back to which horse has better ratings..but as i remember you not keen on ratings
hate to say it but I almost agree. I think versatility is a major plus. When he won the guineas my immediate reaction was that he was a middle distance horse winning a mile classic . And I had a large bet by my dismal standards
i sometimes think that his guineas win was almost the most impressive of all.
EC1
On a break
this subject is a good discussion point Clive..because there is no real answer
its like Usian Bolt..he will be remembered for years..but would he be "better" than someone who is a bit slower than him at 100 metres..but could win at 200m and 400 metres
its a brilliance versus verslatility argument...is a jack of all trades better than a master or one?
its like Usian Bolt..he will be remembered for years..but would he be "better" than someone who is a bit slower than him at 100 metres..but could win at 200m and 400 metres
its a brilliance versus verslatility argument...is a jack of all trades better than a master or one?
EC1
On a break
which tells me that although you like your racing it isn't be all and end all to you..thats fair enough..but you are also suggesting there that anyone who is a racing fanatic is some way inferior..ie better things to do
i don't really agree with that tbh..we all have different levels of interest in the game..for someone who it isn't the be all and end all for..i don't see why it should be a demeaning thing for those that make it their main interest
its a bit like someone who plays footie on a sunday morning saying that pro footballers are anoraks because thats all they do..i have better things to do etc.
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Don't get precious..
its just that comparing dead races is a bit of a waste of time I think. It's a bit like one of my mates who when drinking always bangs on about some great party or trip years ago. Or like someone sitting around listening to,old Cream records. I'm one of those who never looks back much at anything in truth
its just that comparing dead races is a bit of a waste of time I think. It's a bit like one of my mates who when drinking always bangs on about some great party or trip years ago. Or like someone sitting around listening to,old Cream records. I'm one of those who never looks back much at anything in truth
EC1
On a break
Clive..i wouldn't get precious with you any more....i know you are a rude ignorant f**ker..so I make allowances
i'm opposite Clive..i do live in the past..hate modern life in many ways...Cream records still play from time to time..coz they are so good
dead races as you call them..do have future use..if you want to use them in that way
you listen to old music as well don't you?
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EC1
On a break
talking about dead races has given me an idea for a thread
I do but going off subject now.
obviously you learn from past races but ratings are a bit, "let's find a way to quantify the opinion I already have" perhaps?
i suppose all I'm saying is that if gh wins a few more group ones with the same ease then we have a horse to rank alongside sts. Dismissing that as a possibility at this stage is wrong and I think we can all agree that there is every chance of it happening
one thing I always look for in top winners is strength of who they beat. Seems obvious of course but storm and jack are putting big yards between themselves and the rest. That indicates very very promising form
obviously you learn from past races but ratings are a bit, "let's find a way to quantify the opinion I already have" perhaps?
i suppose all I'm saying is that if gh wins a few more group ones with the same ease then we have a horse to rank alongside sts. Dismissing that as a possibility at this stage is wrong and I think we can all agree that there is every chance of it happening
one thing I always look for in top winners is strength of who they beat. Seems obvious of course but storm and jack are putting big yards between themselves and the rest. That indicates very very promising form