Coronation Cup

I don't think Zarkava ran much better than 128-129 in last years Arc but thats a debate done over and over again.

Ratings are based on what a horse actually achieves....to say with "3lbs extra" Youmzain still would have won the same way means very little and cannot be considered particularly about has horse that has had so many ifs about him regarding every bloody race he runs in...wrong pace, wrong ground, hates ascot, wrong jockey, bad positioning....
 
Galileo said:
....about him regarding every bloody race he runs in...wrong pace, wrong ground, hates ascot, wrong jockey, bad positioning....
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Harsh. He needs a long straight and a fast pace. I don't think there is anything particulary unusual about that. The ground and jockey things I don't get involved in. I think he's versatile in regards underfoot conditions and the bottom line is it took an exceptional filly to best him last year. I don't think he'll win an Arc in what could be a very good year but hopefully when Fame and Glory sails past the post running to 135 or so he won't be that far behind:D
 
he had a clear run today i think he actually got his head in front before ask rallied

to many excuses for him always something to complain about he needs this he needs that..................... its jockey error

he quickens once in a race no tactical speed not a sign of a grp 1 horse and its debatable whether he quickens or whether its his opponents tiring

step him up in trip would be the awnser ascot gold cup/ doncaster cup/goodwood cups would be his for the taking
 
Galileo said:
Eastern Anthem is not a Group 1 horse...barely a Group 2 or 3 animal.
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Godolphin strike again. He was good enough in Dubai, beating Youmzain so to suggest he's barely Group 2 or 3 is laughable. The Sheema wasn't the best Group One admitedly but he's certainly group level. Godolphin have clearly ruined another one.
 
Gamla Stan said:
Godolphin strike again. He was good enough in Dubai, beating Youmzain so to suggest he's barely Group 2 or 3 is laughable. The Sheema wasn't the best Group One admitedly but he's certainly group level. Godolphin have clearly ruined another one.
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Spanish Moon is a Group 2/3 horse as well!!! These Dubai races have so many holes in them. For God sake Eastern Anthem was being beaten in handicaps last season....granted horses make improvements but more times than not they do not develop into genuine Group 1 horses in the space of a few months.

I suspect we will have this arguement throughout the season!
 
Galileo said:
Spanish Moon is a Group 2/3 horse as well!!! These Dubai races have so many holes in them. For God sake Eastern Anthem was being beaten in handicaps last season....granted horses make improvements but more times than not they do not develop into genuine Group 1 horses in the space of a few months.

I suspect we will have this arguement throughout the season!
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Presvis has improved in that time to be a genuine Group One horse from a handicapper.

Where do you rate Youmzain then based on his Sheema Classic running?
 
Gamla Stan said:
Presvis has improved in that time to be a genuine Group One horse from a handicapper.

Where do you rate Youmzain then based on his Sheema Classic running?
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Lets see what Presvis does when he come back and races in Europe...assuming he does. But even allowing for that...its the exception rather than the rule.

Youmzain is the type of horse that would finish 2nd/3rd in a Group 2/3 race so I would not use him as a marker particularly when he has run similar races at Dubai before.
 
That finish today reminded me of the Juddmonte of a few years ago but I think today was even closer. That was a below avergae JI and today was a below average CC. Both very exciting races, though. I understand Moore was also suspended so I go back to my original argument from the JI - disqualify the horses and give Look Here the race...
 
Richard Hills gave Youmzain a quite terrible ride . Out in the open with no cover from miles out . Tried to hit the front 2 out and unsurprisingly the old boy hung fire .

With the small field yesterday was a perfect opportunity to sit behind and wait and wait and as ever Hills blew it .
 
Ardross said:
Richard Hills gave Youmzain a quite terrible ride . Out in the open with no cover from miles out . Tried to hit the front 2 out and unsurprisingly the old boy hung fire .

With the small field yesterday was a perfect opportunity to sit behind and wait and wait and as ever Hills blew it .
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I thought the horse did not need holding on to with such exagerated tactics? Is that not what Youmzain fans have been screaming about....pointing to his run at in Saint Cloud where he hit the front a long way from home and beat Soldier Of Fortune? More and more excuses...the only fault with the jockey was his lack of use of the whip (though he put that down to the horse resenting it when he used it earlier in the straight).
 
He went for home on Youmzain only just over a furlong out at Saint Cloud and even then he was dossing allowing S of F to get closer.

I accept that he is a difficult ride and that he pulls himself up but yesterday there was no risk of traffic problems and he surely would have won held up longer . Look at the way he picked up again right at the end - he had loads left .
 
Ardross said:
Richard Hills gave Youmzain a quite terrible ride . Out in the open with no cover from miles out . Tried to hit the front 2 out and unsurprisingly the old boy hung fire .

With the small field yesterday was a perfect opportunity to sit behind and wait and wait and as ever Hills blew it .
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Shocking race reading there. Richard Hills gave Youmzain the perfect ride yesterday.
 
To be beaten once in a close finish is frustrating, twice is unlucky, three is careless and well, the fourth, fifth and six times you start to get the picture. Yet still the excuses keep on coming.
 
Change the record. He's a high class animal operating in the toughest division in the sport. He's better for example than a horse like Marchand D'or who got fawned over to fcuk on here last year despite beating handicappers everytime he ran. And how close as he come to Group success this year, how well did he run against proper Group 1 animals in Dubai?
 
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Alternatively, those trotting out excuses and blaming every jockey that's ever sat on his back might want to change their record...
 
He is a top class horse but he does seem to fall short at the crucial moments for whatever reason. His run behind Zarkava was absolutely bang on though and take her out and he would have an Arc to his name and we wouldn't be having this debate. He's had his chance unfortunately and were it not for an exceptional filly, he'd be held in much higher regard than he is.
 
Isn't that the interesting point though. He keeps running all the way to the line when there is a better oen to chase, put him in a race that his form suggests he should win, and he finds a way to grab defeat from the jaws of victory. A top-class Group 1 horse yes - in no way at a ll a betting proposition when seeming to face a straightforward task.
 
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