Epsom Derby 2012

I agree Euro, but it you increase Camelot's rating, the rest of the field has to go up as well. You have to use a few horses as reference in order to rate the whole race, don't you? otherwise, if improvement is obvious, how you come up with 130 and not 134 for instance. Do you think MS, A and MR improve the same amount as Camelot did from previous ratings?
Was that 130 figure given after timefigures analysis?
 
the sectionals show that Camelot's Derby wasn't a true run race..it was just a bit faster than STS's

using Pru's finishing speed idea you would expect the finishing speed to be about 105/106% in a true run race..above that figure you are getting a slower early pace

STS's race was 114%...
Dancing Rains..ridiculously steady 122%
Camelot's was 112%
Was = 116%
Sir Percy's..which again was steadyish was 111%

Motivator - North Light - Troy - Authorised - Workforce were all in the 105/106% area and they produced speed figures that reflected true ability

so it wasn't condusive to recording a large speed figure yesterday..Coolmore actually set the pace up for speed not stamina..or Ryan Moore did
 
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Gareth Flynn said:
Sounds like Ryan Moore set a pace conducive to getting the best placing for his own horse.
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he did both really..he made sure he had a chance and he gave Camelot a lesser stamina test just in case there was a chink there

Camelot is showing a lot of speed in both races now..he wasn't favoured by being 6 lengths off that pace but still breezed past Moore
 
You have to give it to Aidan O'Brien EC1, I'm not sure whether Coolmore employ scientists but his approach to running races for his horses has brought the game to a whole new level which others are struggling to compete in.

I've fallen into the trap around Camelot not running to levels expected and it's cost me dear but I've never witnessed an operation who have control over the sport like this, everything they have done this season its nothing short of remarkable and probably hasn't been given the credit it deserves.

You would have to look into things a little further to discover how he's using his horses attributes to control races and has the strength in depth to cover many variables that I'm not sure he's ever had before.

He's put many trainers in this country about 10 years behind in their approach to racing and those who are not able to adapt to new levels of thinking are going to sink which sadly I think Sir Michael Stoute is falling under the trap.

You don't just need the horse anymore you need the race, Henry Cecil may have won a the 2000 Guineas in a style that decrypted "a new way to win a race" across the media and he may be seen in years to come as the first man to take on this new approach which may have sparked off Aidan O'Brien in unleashing this onslaut to prove this new level of thinking was just around the corner and long may it continue.

When you have man that's reached 200 Group 1 winners you could argue that it could produce a negative effect on being able to motivate yourself when you've achieved everything in the game whereby there's nothing that can surprise you anymore but this isn't the case, the man is completely devoted to every inch of the sport from the gravel his horses walk to the stables on at home to the noise they are subjected to in their environment and it comes as no surprise he's leaving many of his generation behind in his approach.
 
he has certainly mastered the use of pace to suit his horses..he makes a few errors like setting a slow pace for RVW when in fact he should have geared that race for F&G and set a strong pace.

other trainers still think that having pacemakers is to set an even pace..whereas AOB has opened it up to setting the "right" pace for his horses
 
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If he was mine he'd go for either the Eclipse or Juddmonte now, wherever Frankel goes. I'd have to take on Frankel just to see who's better and it'd be a huge clash. If he gets beaten, so what? You'll still have the first Triple Crown winner for 40 years. Then obviously I'd go for the St Leger and then onto the Arc. He won't stick around for next year but I'd like him to. Plenty of races for him if they did. Perhaps he could miss the Arc this year, finish the season with the St Leger. Then next year take in the Eclipse, King George, Irish Champion and the Arc. That way he'll have had the chance to win both the Triple Crown and the Arc without it being such a huge ask, plus will have had a go at Frankel and also taken in top events like the King George and Irish Champion without trying to cram so much into a 3yo season.
 
I'd be more interested in the battle of Bullet Train & Robin Hood in the Juddmonte rather than Frankel & Camelot.

Keep him in training and go for Ascot Gold Cup next year, I really don't think it's out of the equation either.

St Leger, Melbourne Cup / Vintage Crop, Ascot Gold Cup, Arc / Stud
 
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Bruce, you have come up with some corkers in your time but saying that the Ascot Gold Cup is not "out of the equation" for Camelot has to rank pretty highly. No chance whatsoever.

With So You Think and St Nicholas Abbey knocking around it will be interesting to see where he goes.

So You Think - POW, Eclipse
St Nicholas Abbey - King George, Arc, Breeders' Cup Turf
Camelot - ?
 
EC1 said:
he has certainly mastered the use of pace to suit his horses..he makes a few errors like setting a slow pace for RVW when in fact he should have geared that race for F&G and set a strong pace.

other trainers still think that having pacemakers is to set an even pace..whereas AOB has opened it up to setting the "right" pace for his horses
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You're having a laugh - Coolmore's inadequate use of pacemakers is bordering on legendary.
Lat year it was Memphis Tensessee who went clear of his field and was totally ignored by the rest. The year previous it was At First Sight 8l in front and little influence on the true pace, and the year before that (RVW's Year) it was Golden Sword's turn to be the hare that no one stalked.
Not just the Derby, but in dozens of gp1's otherwise they have shown the same ineptitude, famously: the George Washington Eclipse and Yeats' Melbourne Cup being prime examples, often ridden by pilots who hadn't a clue.
Yesterday, they used someone who has a proper clock in their head, knew how to use it - and it showed.
 
Aiden's use of pacemakers is greatly looked down upon from many in the sport, the media and many of the fans that support Horse Racing.

The man knows the limitations, expectations and thresholds of his horses and probably isn't given the recognition he deserves. He's very much into timing his horses on the gallops and has information in his yard on bits of paper that are worth millions and probably put away in a bullet proof safe.
 
reet hard said:
You're having a laugh - Coolmore's inadequate use of pacemakers is bordering on legendary.
Lat year it was Memphis Tensessee who went clear of his field and was totally ignored by the rest. The year previous it was At First Sight 8l in front and little influence on the true pace, and the year before that (RVW's Year) it was Golden Sword's turn to be the hare that no one stalked.
Not just the Derby, but in dozens of gp1's otherwise they have shown the same ineptitude, famously: the George Washington Eclipse and Yeats' Melbourne Cup being prime examples, often ridden by pilots who hadn't a clue.
Yesterday, they used someone who has a proper clock in their head, knew how to use it - and it showed.
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they usually purposely set a less than even pace..which is what they do..including yesterday..not sure what your point is..but you seem to believe like other trainers do that you HAVE to set even fractions..its rare for his front runners to go mad unless it suits their horse as with F&G bar for his derby

i already said he got it wrong with F&G

you seem to believe Moore set even pace yesterday..he clearly didn't..if you bother to do the sectionals you will clearly see that
 
But they're racing against other horses, not a stopwatch, and to draw others in you need to sit just in front and gradually wind it up - which Ryan Moore did perfectly.
Not since Johnny Murtagh have Coolmore had anyone with that capability (maybe that's why he left - he didn't fancy being the hare, to one with half the talent :))
 
reet hard said:
But they're racing against other horses, not a stopwatch, and to draw others in you need to sit just in front and gradually wind it up - which Ryan Moore did perfectly.
Not since Johnny Murtagh have Coolmore had anyone with that capability (maybe that's why he left - he didn't fancy being the hare, to one with half the talent :))
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he set a less than even pace yes..which traditionally pacemakers don't do..thats my point..you now agree that he uses pacemakers differently to other trainers..so i don't see what you on about..AOB is the only trainer who uses pacemakers to slow races down..not every race.. but he does it to suit whichever of his horses he wants to win. The only time he truly made a mistake was trying to set the Derby up for RVW when he should have set a faster than even pace to suit F&G...which we know know would have suited STS as well.

name another trainer that puts pacemakers in to slow the pace?..i can't think of any
 
EC1 said:
name another trainer that puts pacemakers in to slow the pace?..i can't think of any
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I wouldn't necessarily say the variables on his approach are either slow or fast but he certainty has his jockey's well drilled in counting their sectionals throughout the race and when to play the other horses in to suit their abilities shown at home.

A good work out would be having Camelot, Starspangledbanner and Fame And Glory in a 6f work out, Fame And Glory leads with 2f left to go you give Starspangledbanner a squeeze from the rear to reach top gear as he approaches Camelot's girth and if he Camelot can sustain upsides on the bridle against a Group 1 winning sprinter whilst finishing upsides Fame And Glory you got enough information there to control any race in the world.
 
they will talk about the leger but camelot will go for the irish champion then the arc.

incidentally nijinskys participation in the leger was an afterthough and not in the trainer/owners original plans
 
If it was an operation that had maybe one chance at this level Irish Champion/Arc route would no doubt be the way to go. However Ballydoyle/Coolmore has little to prove and does not need to plough the same route and they have the luxury of targeting races for those best suited. I sense that they would be delighted to showcase a Triple Crown winner. The first Triple Crown winner since Nijinsky would actually enhance stud value for those looking for strengths of versatility to inject into the breed... so I wouldn’t be ruling out a St Leger bid from Camelot by any means.
 
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In all honesty do they really want to find out that Camelot can stay 14 Furlongs?
 
Bruce_Savage said:
In all honesty do they really want to find out that Camelot can stay 14 Furlongs?
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It's not about the St Leger in isolation. It's what the three races together mean in the context of racing. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. That's why I believe he will go for the Leger, because in this instance it won't be the death knell for his commercial stallion prospects that a Leger win alone would be, and it will give him the opportunity of immortality as opposed to being remembered as just a(nother) very good racehorse.
 
I understand the Synergy in what you're proposing but if we get to September with the front 3 or 4 in both Classics failing to win another race then how detrimental is that going to be to the legitimacy of winning a Triple Crown?
 
Racing him against Frankel at 10F would prove him ten times over than winning a St Leger at 3's on.

You could race him in the Ascot Gold Cup but if there is no spectacle apart from a one horse race how is that really achieving anything.

As racing fans we should be chomping on the bit to see the two best horses race against each other, and leave the ducking and diving, bottling and cowardice to owners of the horses in this industry.
 
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Marble said:
Racing him against Frankel at 10F would prove him ten times over than winning a St Leger at 3's on.

You could race him in the Ascot Gold Cup but if there is no spectacle apart from a one horse race how is that really achieving anything.

As racing fans we should be chomping on the bit to see the two best horses race against each other, and leave the ducking and diving, bottling and cowardice to owners of the horses in this industry.
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no one ever mentions who Nijinsky beat in the Leger though

let him try for it..you won't ever see it done again..or even tried for
 
True but do not forget the fact that Ladbrokes sponsor the St Leger. The Derek Smith connection along with how Ladbrokes were banging the Camelot drum all spring all point in one direction, now the Triple Crown is on.
Aidan O Brien has few regrets as a trainer. One probably is not training Galileo for 2000 Gns in 2001. Reading Alastiar Down in Racing Post yesterday confirms that to me. Now he has a horse that can do it must at least tempt him.
Remember the last man to speak of triple crown glory was his old boss J Bolger with Teofilo; so the idea is not so old fashioned.
 
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