Epsom Derby

Originally posted by BrianH@May 31 2006, 04:45 PM
Pricewise has spoken - Sir Tom goes for Sir Percy.
If Horatio or Linda`s Lad fail to land the race i`d like to see Sir Percy win. At least then so we can put an end to this ridiculous stat of prepping as a three year old over a mile somehow rules a colt out of the equation.

I went to a casino in Blackpool on saturday and during a little session on the Roulette table black came up twelve straight times. Did this somehow mean that red didn`t have a chance of getting the Roulette ball or was it just a statistical blimp? I`m oversimplifying but the point is made.

It`s nice to see Tom ignore the bullshit stats that inferior punters use as crutches and go for Sir Percy. Mr Segal may be a handicap specialist to these eyes but his opinion is to be respected.
 
You're not oversimplifying, you're mis-analogising. On a roulette table, every spin is completely independent of the last spin, so the odds are reset to 50/50 (ignoring the green) every time.

A horse's performance in the Derby, however, is affected to some degree by how he prepped.

This doesn't preclude the possibility that the "prepping over a mile" stat is simply a short-term anomaly (short-term in the context of the entire history of the Derby).
 
I'm a very "feeling" punter. I get a sickening feeling in my stomach when I'm backing a loser - sometimes I listen to it, sometimes I don't. I can't recall an occasion where it has been wrong, so maybe I should listen to it more often.

I have that feeling right now. I have backed Visindar, Linda's Lad and Championship Point at reasonable prices and wouldn't be unhappy to find my feelings being proved wrong. But they probably won't be.

Septimus is a Leger horse.

Which, for me, leaves Horatio Nelson, Sir Percy and Papal Bull. Segal's going for Sir Percy puts me off - like Euro, my perception of his ability in Group races is not good.

So the questions currently floating around the ther of my mind are:

Did Sir Percy get second in the Guineas on the back of his class, while he really needs 1m4f? If so he's going to be a fucking monster.

Will Horatio Nelson stay? Breeding says so, but breeding is wrong quite frequently. Wasn't given a hard time in the Guineas. Will he improve massively for the step up in trip? He'll need to.

Is Papal Bull really any good? I can't believe so. In fact I am officially discounting him.

I'm sure the answers will resolve themselves in due time.
 
It is the tendency for jockeys to stick with the one they were on previously if they are showing anything at all.

Remember Hawk Wing was first choice for both the Guineas and the Derby over ROG and HC.
 
What you see in the casino is the statistical laws of probability being expressed as a sequence according to the laws of random distribution. This can impact on the distribution of race results to a limited extent, but as Gareth points out though, in racing there is a 'cause and affect' dynamic at play, and that is why sequences can be explained in nearly every instance (admittedly with differing degrees of certainty) and with a degree of speculative hypothesising in the event of a new one emerging until it becomes more or less accepted or disproven. The secret therefore is to establish whether there's a rational, and importantly, satisfactory (the two aren't necessarily the same) explanation for a sequence. Once you understand the dynamic involved, and are happy that it's more than just random distribution, then you can use the trend to inform your judgement, based on an appreciation of it's relative reliability as an indicator (its rare to find a 100% filter, without getting silly).

The problem is when an unexplainable sequence occurs which seems to have no tangible cause and effect but none the less, appears to be a demonstrable trend of reliable forecasting ability. For instance what stock would you place in a correlation between the annual percentage conception rate in Argyllshire for the last 100 years amongst the population, being the same as the winning stall number for the Derby? These types of instances are rare to unheard of (especially on this scale) and have to be chalked up to conicidence, (though with a correlation that strong, you'd be tempted to have a few shekels I'd suggest?)

There's also a pyschological element to some trends/ conicidences also, which involves people finding what they want to find. Mordin's often accused of it, but one of the best examples I can think of concerns the whole list of coincidences that are supposed to link the assasinations of Abraham Lincoln and Jack Kennedy. When you look at the resevoir of data available for any events in recorded history (linked or otherwise) and how you can then extrapolate it for interpretation, its no surprise that people can generate the seemingly 'weird'. This is little more than selective coincidence building, and totally consistant with random distribution given the numbers involved.

I think what you're describing Euro, is equally dangerous though, and a trap that people can fall into (I know I could). It's a situation built around confusion essentially, a sequence that defies probability can be generated, and presented as something above random distribution. In theory it should self regulate and correct itself over time, returning to a more predictable pattern. Failure to do this however, will mark it out as a shift in a trend that requires explanation. It depends where abouts you are on any hypothetical schedule therefore as to how you interpret it. Climate change would be a good example for instance. Do you say that the 4 hottest years in recorded global history occurred in the 1990's (its probably worse by now) but we needn't worry, it's a blip? I think it's easy to confuse a sequence and a trend though. One is tantamount to a series of results, the other involves an explanation of this sequence, and therefore carries an implicity element of future forecasting.
 
Originally posted by Warbler@Jun 1 2006, 12:02 PM
One of the best examples I can think of concerns the whole list of coincidences that are supposed to link the assasinations of Abraham Lincoln and Jack Kennedy.
Ah, that one again! We've had that on here a few times. And a few times I've had to point out those which were true and those which were complete inventions.
 
Take you vehemently denied any link/ involvement in the first one then Brian?

But more seriously, some of these alleged links might exist, but regardless of whether they do or not? they can be explained through the random distribution of statistics. My God you could generate an infinately larger list of statistics that have no correlation
 
There is no way whatsoever you will get 2/1 on the day of the race unless the wheels fall off Visindar or Pegasus emerges from the Dante. He's 6/4 with Laddies already so once the mickey mouse firms lay the 9/4 (which they will, and probably today) I reckon you'll be lucky to find 2s about in a few days, let alone by the day of the race!

Shadow Visindar is now freely available at 2/1 now. If Alexandrova wins its very likely Horatio Nelson will start favourite for the Derby and could possibly do so anyway.
 
Visindar is bound to drift in a very open Derby. There are more than a handful who will stay the trip better and come to the race in good heart.

It's certainly possible HN could start favourite, but I suspect the momentum for him was seen a couple of days ago. I'd still expect Visindar to start favourite although he could well drift even more.

The money will start going on the value bets such as Septimus, Sir Percy, Papal Bull, Championship Point, etc now.
 
There's an interesting piece in the RP today about horses stepping up from top class 1m races and improvement they've compared to those with top class form and 9f+ and their improvement in the Derby.

Think at 1m from about 20 runners only Hawk Wing and another horse (can't remember which) showed improvement, and that was 2lb in HW's case, the other's re-gressed.
 
This was the Turftrax chart as at teatime yesterday. The dark green is good, the light green is good to soft. An overcast but breezy day today will have seen it dry out more.

Epsom_Report_Images_EPS310506pm.jpg
 
The actual forecast for tomorrow is Good, Good to Soft in places (7.1). Dry and bright with some sunny spells. Warm during the afternoon. Max temp 20C.

Saturday is still erring slightly to the soft side of Good.
 
Well it is chalk based, so with no more rain it should dry a little. It will be fair for all of them though.
 
EPSOM DRYING OUT
By Nick Robson, PA Sport

Epsom clerk of the course Andrew Cooper has described the going as good ahead of the Vodafone Derby meeting, which gets underway on Friday.

There were rumblings last week the ground could ride on the soft side after the recent unseasonable rain, but a dry week has enabled Cooper to prepare perfect racing ground.

"I've given the going as good after a stick reading of 7.5 which compares with 7.1 yesterday afternoon," he said.

"It should be nice Flat racing ground, I certainly had no hesitation in dropping the good to soft places and it will continue to dry.

"There is no rain around so it will only get quicker but it is not ground that is going to be worse than good to firm at any stage of the meeting. But I do think that it looks an increasing possibility for Saturday.

"We won't water before tomorrow but we can't rule out watering on Friday evening. However, I do not like to water during a meeting due to all the undulations, I prefer to let it settle."
 
Originally posted by Irish Stamp@Jun 1 2006, 01:56 PM
There's an interesting piece in the RP today about horses stepping up from top class 1m races and improvement they've compared to those with top class form and 9f+ and their improvement in the Derby.

Think at 1m from about 20 runners only Hawk Wing and another horse (can't remember which) showed improvement, and that was 2lb in HW's case, the other's re-gressed.
Yes it was a good article. Interesting that he only included horses who had showed high class (115+) form over a mile, so Generous wasn`t included and of course the stat doesn`t apply to Horatio Nelson either.
 
I spoke with Mark Johnson tonight and he is adamant that whatever they tell you the going is GOOD to FIRM for the Derby.
 
Originally posted by Euronymous@Jun 1 2006, 08:19 PM
Yes it was a good article. Interesting that he only included horses who had showed high class (115+) form over a mile, so Generous wasn`t included and of course the stat doesn`t apply to Horatio Nelson either.
And of course, there have been many Oaks runners who have stepped up on top-class mile form.
 
I don't know why none of you aren't lumping (at least e/w) on NODDIES WAY: beautifully bred for NH out of a SHAREEF DANCER mare, never run before, changed trainers already, has a claiming rider who needs one more win to lose it, and left in the declarations by mistake.

That 1000-1 looks mighty short to me...
 
What does Johnston know An? :lol: It would need to be 9 or above to be Good to Firm. It won't be. It's 7.5 today.
 
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