Findlay Warned off for 6mths

The Beginners Chase Rory.

Swing Bill backed in from 25/1 into 4/1 for the Pipe yard with Hadden Frost booked.

Openditch (originally in at 4/1) withdrawn by the stable

Tom Scudamore switches to Swing Bill

Show money for Swing Bill (5's into 4's)

Strong support on the shows for Ballyvesey (7/4 into 6/5)

Paul Nicholls had two in the race, Hell's Bay drifted slightly (5's out to 6's, eventual SP of 11/2) and Apartman (3's out to 4's) whilst the Jonjo O'Neill horse was very weak in the morning.

Swing Bill was upsides Hell's Bay (pair clear) going to two out when Hell's Bay ran out and Swing Bill sauntered to a clear win.

The market moves and sequence of events pre-race are what look suspect to me.
 
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Hey the old switching jockeys trick. That was tried recently in Ireland and they asked to see the young lads sick cert from the doctor. Young lad said GPs cost too much so he didn't go and to chat to the Minister for Health:D
 
lol Cantoris.

The Stewards wouldn't let Byrnes put Andrew McNamara up on one a month or so ago at Ballinrobe - he had to put R J McCarth(7) up. In the end it didn't matter who rode him the horse still won, the reason he wanted McNamara to replace the ill conditional was that he was a close friend of the owner.
 
A few points re: the Newton Abbot scenario.

1.) Who exactly would make Swing Bill 25/1 for such a race? I was involved with the Hen Knight yard when she had both him and Openditch and they were held in similar regard. The layoff would be a question mark of sorts but the Pipe stable has never struggled to get them fit. The obsession with junior odds compilers that the "second string" of any stable should be an outsider has always confused me.

2.) Hadden Frost is a good jockey. If Swing Bill was due to be ridden by Miss V Tottington-Smythe, then I could have some sympathy, but Frost is arguably already the equal of Scu, especially in tactical terms.

3.) The withdrawal of Openditch is, by derivation, of no consequence to the race as a whole. I know it may possibly be orchestrated, but if the race is priced up correctly then it makes no odds (pun intended).

4.) Show money doesn't appear hugely surprising.

5.) Hells Bay's running out is surely not considered suspicious. So why mention it?
 
DJ: Chester Barnes, ex-table tennis player and the chap who runs Pipey's tipping service, if my memory serves me right - no guarantee, though. Cantoris, sorry, did that from an ever-unreliable memory, without going back mid-type to look and refresh it.
 
1) Massive question mark surrounding the lay-off - he'd been off the track for upwards of two years, had shown all his best form in 2006 (hadn't won since Pau that year). Agree with you on the "second string" but this was a horse who'd been beaten 61 3/4 lengths on his previous 3 starts over fences (admitedly not beaten far on his first start but that was 3 1/2 years ago). The horse's two previous wins had come on "heavy" ground whilst his only previous start on the ground had resulted in a 23 length defeat over hurdles.


2) Hadden Frost is indeed a very good jockey but he's still a relatively inexperienced conditional jockey in relation to the stables retained rider Tom Scudamore.

3) Openditch was withdrawn and the jockey change occured AFTER the money was put down on Swing Bill - it wouldn't make odds if the race was priced up correctly and in this instance anyone taking the big early prices would have had a 15-20p rule 4 on their bets.

4) Not surprising but the drift on a horse who started a 5/4 favourite for his chasing debut before falling does surprise me, especially in the context of this race which wasn't the strongest around.

5) Not suspicious but it happened during the race so I mentioned it - possible that Swing Bill wouldn't have won and I wouldn't have mentioned the Newton Abbott race at all and it would be consigned to the realms of failed gambles but as it happened he won very easily.
 
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If you watch American racing on a regular basis you will see inexplicable results where no gamble has been attempted.Strange things happen with horses.One member on here was convinced that a touch had been landed when Istabraq pulled up at Cheltenham -another wondered if SHeikh Mo had a touch when his 100/1 pacemaker made all for a Group 1 win at Ascot.
 
Irish Stamp said:
1) Massive question mark surrounding the lay-off - he'd been off the track for upwards of two years, had shown all his best form in 2006 (hadn't won since Pau that year). Agree with you on the "second string" but this was a horse who'd been beaten 61 3/4 lengths on his previous 3 starts over fences (admitedly not beaten far on his first start but that was 3 1/2 years ago). The horse's two previous wins had come on "heavy" ground whilst his only previous start on the ground had resulted in a 23 length defeat over hurdles.
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Come on Martin - the favourite in the race was beaten over 80 lengths in only two chase starts! Swing Bill had also shown the best chase form in the race on the ground, even after coming to the UK. There are doubtless plenty of dodgy races in the calendar but this wasn't one of them.
 
True Luke - some horses just have races run to suit or optimum conditions on a given day or another horse underperform, "they're not machines" as the old adage goes.

Think the only touch landed on the day Istabraq was pulled up in the Champion Hurdle was the gamble on Like-A-Butterfly in the Supreme Novices.
 
Fair enough Rory - plenty of the show money at least for the favourite will have been due to the great form the yard are in the at the moment and good luck to anyone who backed Swing Bill at big prices - it was quite a leap of faith IMO to hope the horse was back to his best after a 3 year lay-off (and I'm normally into leaps of faith).
 
Irish Stamp said:
Fair enough Rory - plenty of the show money at least for the favourite will have been due to the great form the yard are in the at the moment and good luck to anyone who backed Swing Bill at big prices - it was quite a leap of faith IMO to hope the horse was back to his best after a 3 year lay-off (and I'm normally into leaps of faith).
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Doubt he had to be Martin - I think most of the perceived problems with gambles are due to inefficient markets as much as anything. Liquidity is very poor until close to show time for most jump races.
 
Good points - easy to exploit if you know what you're doing (same with the AW, particularly when there are major meetings on).

It does amuse me that some firms would rather trust the opinion of someone putting up £2 at 20 or £10 at 18 than the traders and compilers they pay to do the job. Seems a very dangerous game to play as no doubt many have found out or are likely to find out.
 
Irish Stamp said:
It does amuse me that some firms would rather trust the opinion of someone putting up £2 at 20 or £10 at 18 than the traders and compilers they pay to do the job. Seems a very dangerous game to play as no doubt many have found out or are likely to find out.
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I'd say in the lower grade stuff, you're spot on. Standing animals to lose six figures in shite races round shite tracks is not what it's about for any firm that wants to stay afloat. Too much skullduggery does go on and it's understandable why you can only get £25 EW on at early prices on handicaps round Wolverhampton.

However, I think firms are much better trusting the market on the better quality Saturday afternoon and big meeting racing. Taking the side of the market on a race like the Wokingham is makes much more sense than trusting two or three individuals who might think one is well handicapped etc.

There is a balance to be struck.
 
I think Harry Findlay really needs someone to advise him on his PR - this smacks of spitting out his dummy.
 
rorydelargy said:
If Swing Bill was due to be ridden by Miss V Tottington-Smythe, then I could have some sympathy, but Frost is arguably already the equal of Scu, especially in tactical terms.
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So is Miss V Tottingtom-Smythe (and Michael D Mouse).
 
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'Sad day' for Nicholls yard as association ends with Findlays
"A SAD day" was how both trainer Paul Nicholls and his landlord Paul Barber described the loss of horses owned by Maggie Findlay in the latest development from the BHA's six-month ban on her son Harry Findlay.

They were reacting to the news that the owner had given up her share in Totesport Gold Cup and dual Hennessy winner Denman to Barber in return for full ownership of John Smith's Grand National fourth Big Fella Thanks, who is to be trained by Ferdy Murphy, and winning hurdler Beshabar, who joins Tim Vaughan.

Eight other horses owned jointly by Barber and Findlay go to the Doncaster sales next month.

"It is a very sad day," said Barber. "We have had some wonderful days together and a hell of a lot of winners and I have thoroughly enjoyed it but, with Harry going to Australia, it is the right time to move on before the horses come back in.

"I must remember to ring Harry and ask him to return Big Fella Thanks as a hunter when he has finished."

Barber confirmed his support for Findlay, who is away on holiday preparing for his appeal next Wednesday against his ban handed down for laying Gullible Gordon, who was owned by his mother and trained by Nicholls.


Paul Barber: "I wish Harry well"



"I feel Harry has been victimised - nobody realises how badly he has taken this.

"He feels his good name has been ruined by very poor decisions from the BHA and I agree with him. I think what the BHA has done is unbelievable and I wish Harry well with his appeal next week."

Nicholls, returning from holiday to the news, said on Tuesday: "I agree with Paul Barber that it is a sad day when it comes to this.

"Harry and Maggie have had a lot of success since they came to Ditcheat eight years ago and I wish them all the continued success in the future."

Maggie Findlay, who along with her son missed a Royal Ascot winner last month with the Gary Moore-trained Bergo in the Queen Alexandra Stakes, said: "I am missing racing and the people as it was great fun but I will still never go racing as long as Harry is banned.

"It is sad and I enjoyedmy visits to Ditcheat but I know Paul will look after Denman and I am looking forward to the appeal going our way."

Can`t help but agree with these sentiments
 
Nicholls once again keeping his mouth shut. Smart man.

I feel sorry for Barber. I know he's getting full ownership of Denman but I'm sure he's not pleased to lose Big Fella Thanks.

I'm not sure if Mrs Findlay is just publicity grabbing at this stage. Why didn't they wait until the appeal was over next week to make all these moves? He could be back on the course next week.
 
Gamla Stan said:
I'd say in the lower grade stuff, you're spot on. Standing animals to lose six figures in shite races round shite tracks is not what it's about for any firm that wants to stay afloat. Too much skullduggery does go on and it's understandable why you can only get £25 EW on at early prices on handicaps round Wolverhampton.

However, I think firms are much better trusting the market on the better quality Saturday afternoon and big meeting racing. Taking the side of the market on a race like the Wokingham is makes much more sense than trusting two or three individuals who might think one is well handicapped etc.

There is a balance to be struck.
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It's like anything if it's a strong market then it's easier to trust, weak markets less so.

You'd much rather lay a £10,000 bet on a Wokingham than a 0-60 at Southwell and rather a 0-60 at Southwell than say a donkey derby at the local church fair.

Whilst in the Wokingham you know there won't be one running to get it's mark down or one that's got six duck eggs next to his name in maidens, or dropping half a mile in trip you can't say the same about races at Southwell or other minor tracks.
 
The big handicaps tend to go to very well handicapped/proverbial "group horse in a handicap" types more and more these days with Laddies Poker Two, Imposing, Penitent going on this season and Mabait being unlucky at Ascot
 
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