Fiscal Compact Treaty

Your voting intention on the Treaty Referendum

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 66.7%

  • No

    Votes: 3 33.3%
  • Total voters
    9
  • Poll closed .
And what will happen to irelands credit rating and already stretched borrowing ability if the answer is no? I can hazard a guess...

Germany's stance may have its faults, but frankly painting them as the only culprits in this is ridiculous.
 
clivex said:
Germany's stance may have its faults, but frankly painting them as the only culprits in this is ridiculous.
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'Never said Germany was the only culprit ............. or even the main one.
Just that at the present time, it can be argued that the economic powerhouse of Germany is consistently on "high-gain" from the common euro currency to the detriment of many of the other member states.

No, the main culprits are the banks. From that opinion I won't be swayed.
The banks, bondholders and speculative capitalists have brought the continent to the edge of ruin. Only a couple of days ago I note that Bankia of Spain is looking for another €24 billion from the Spanish government -- a government that is fiscally already on its knees.
In Ireland we have already have had over €70 billion sucked out of the economy to pay back German intra-bank loans to toxic indigenous ones.

The banking system in the modern era is the clearest representation of a kind of Carrion Capitalism. Feeding off the working people of Europe to substantially increase their own monetary reserves. This banking system has somehow persuaded democratic governments to convert impaired banking loans into sovereign debt with all the consequent repercussions befalling the ordinary people.

I can foresee a time when the idea will take hold that rather than occupying distant lands, the armies of the Western democracies would be better employed in waging a Third World War against the banking haut monde and the super-rich elite.
In the meantime, I can give my full endorsement to any citizen of Europe who wishes to engage in a bit of recreational drive-by shooting of these scumbag bankers ! :whistle:
 
You are beginning to sound a bit bonkers now. Should also bé remembered that far from every bank screwed up but whilst no one is going to defend their actions, the usual question can bé fired at the frankly useless left. Whats your alternative to banking ?
 
I'm not promoting an alternative to banking. I have no problem with banking per se.

It is the current banking system which I and many others have issues with. The banking system as it is currently incorporated is rotten to the core. The large European banks have created the present economic turmoil via their mis-management, reckless lending strategies and casino type speculative investing.
Worse still, those in charge of these banks now effectively dictate the politics of Europe. They can demand that entire countries are made bankrupt so long as the banks are saved. Merkel and a few others on the Right acquiesce in all of this.

Bonkers I may well be, but would a root-and-branch cleansing of the entire rotten system not be "for the greater good"? Is it time for an honest re-evaluation of the paramountcy bestowed upon bankers vis-a-vis the lack of concern shown for economically destroyed nations? And is it so far-fetched to imagine a time when these super-rich global moneyhouses become so arrogantly powerful that they have to be taken down a step or two by sheer force of arms?
 
Getting back to the referendum.

I think the No people are playing a very dangerous game given that there seem to be reasonable grounds for thinking that the next tranche of bailout funds may not be made available to us if we aren't in this ESM. This thing about renegotiating the agreement is clearly a non-starter as well.

I think the Yes people have presented a grossly misleading picture with these notions that the agreement will bring 'stability'. The Yes people have also argued that the agreement will prevent a future financial crisis, which is both risible and willfully misleading.

I actually don't the agreement itself is that relevant in the grand scheme of things.
 
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Icebreaker. Just as a final word (perhaps) simply blaming the lenders and not the borrowers is pushing it frankly

trackside. That seems to make a lot of sense. No one can guarantee stability anywhere> increase the chances of it, yes but no more
 
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I think the Irish should vote yes. If we vote no we'll be singled out for negative attention and potentially very serious consequences. Far better to let the bigger boys in the class, especially France, lead the effort to bring European economic management back into balance. When that moment comes we should of course support them.

Icebreaker, I sympathise with a lot of what you have to say, especially your points about the role of the banks, shareholders and financial bods in all countries in starting this crisis. Investors, bank executives and the bodies supposed to be watching over them all became infected by an attitude that the short term was what mattered and the long term could look after itself.

But no matter where you are placed on the political spectrum books have to be balanced, and the Greeks have to accept this as much as anyone else. Sooner or later there was always going to be a crisis in that country; membership of the euro allowed them to postpone the reckoning day beyond the recovery point. Now that it's happened I don't know how they are going to get out of it. Their only foreign earner is tourism. Maybe every German should be obliged to spend their holidays there until they've spent enough money to get the Greek economy rolling again.

Books have to be balanced in Ireland as well, we learned that lesson the hard way in the late 70s and the 1980s after Charles Haughey went in for a Greek style expansion of the civil and public service as a way to increase employment. It took us a long time to get out of that hole.
 
Listened to a lady from Iceland during the week and their experience when they decided to grasp the nettle, no doomsday, Atm's etc worked. Banks where separated into good and bad. The standard of living dropped to 2002 levels (how bad) Now they are coming out the other side.

Their Children and grand children won't have to deal with our mess.
 
Grey, I don't think there is any arguing against the repayment of legitimate debts -- sovereign debt etc -- or the need for "book balancing.
What is objectionable is the forced repayment of the gambling losses of unsecured, unguaranteed bondholders and German banks.

Tomorrow the 28th, Ireland will pay another 2.25 Billion euro to bondholders.
Followed by 7.8 million euro worth of Norwegian Krone on Wednesday.
A further €50 million to unsecured bondholders on Saturday.
The following week begins with two further tranches of €57 million and €7 million respectively on Monday the 4th.
And on and on and on ....................
The country, like Greece, is being bled dry to maintain German banks and assorted bondholders.

Diarmuid O'Flynn maintains a blog record of of these repayments which makes for gut-wrenching viewing.
http://bondwatchireland.blogspot.com/
 
clivex said:
simply blaming the lenders and not the borrowers is pushing it frankly
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So Clive, how do you square that with the creation of those financial instruments known as CDO's -- Collateralized Debt Obligation's ?
I'll quote from a third party source who can explain CDO's far more concisely and succinctly than I ever could:

"Investment banking arms were under no obligation to create these 'investment vehicles' ( CDO's), they weren't necessary to the transaction, they were essentially extravagant indulgencies. This wasn't lending, as this money wasn't taken out by borrowers. This was trading and speculating on the value of each others lending, which ultimately resulted in hedge funds going against the banks who'd overbid their CDO's and lost complete control of what obligations were in a portfolio and who'd taken out how much exposure to what. It's this that stoked up the sub-prime bubble and brought about the credit crunch. This wasn't money lent to anyone, but money blown on the roulette table.
Ultimately this is where the problems stemmed from and continue to do so today. The banks went bust and the sovereigns stepped in to take their toxic debts off them. "
 
Its got absolutely nothing to do with greece and others overborrowing. No one HAS to borrow anything.

Its appears that there is some sort of patriotic intent to claim "it wasnt us" "they made us borrow it"

Just the same as tinpot african nations in the not so distant past

I thought most in Ireland had faced up to the fck up? As BTB says, if you are "bailed out" because no one will lend, you have failed. You cannot keep blaming external forces. When the UK went to the IMF in the 70s it was seen by everyone as deeply embarrassing.
 
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If you think its too much to expect that bonds should bé paid on the maturity date then i would suggest that you consider what terns future lenders might wish to impose. Any suggestions ?

Either way, the blame game isn getting anyone anywhere now
 
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I have an issue with the constant use of the term 'bankers'.

About 95% of High Street bank staff have 'decent' Ts & C's, but they wouldn't be any better than any other enterprise sector. The same constituency have faced massive redundancies across the industry too.

These people were/are not the problem. It's the remaining 5% that were/are the problem; whether it be down to greed, delinquency, ego, blase, or any permutation of same.

Even then, they're only part of the problem.

The Ratings Agencies, FSA, the BofE, and the Blair/Brown government are all cuplable too, imo.

Angela Merkel was stopped at Athens customs today.

"Name?"
"Merkel"
"Occupation?"
"No. I'm only here for a couple of days"
 
Very funny... must admit i liked that

I agree. For me it will always be the ratings agencies that were most culpable. it was simply their job to pick up weaknesses and they didnt. they are crap frankly
 
Grasshopper said:
I have an issue with the constant use of the term 'bankers'.
About 95% of High Street bank staff have 'decent' Ts & C's, but they wouldn't be any better than any other enterprise sector. The same constituency have faced massive redundancies across the industry too.
These people were/are not the problem.
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Do you honestly think that I am referring to the lowly £20,000 per year teller when I accuse "bankers" of the arrogance, incompetence and greed which has brought Europe to the brink of economic calamity?
Come on, now, fella.

What I have an issue with is your attempt to fabricate a favourable image of culpable bad bankers at the top responsible for this mess by saying that 95% of ordinary bank employees were/are blameless.
 
Grasshopper said:
The Ratings Agencies, FSA, the BofE, and the Blair/Brown government are all cuplable too, "
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A fact not to be downplayed or underestimated, as it usually is these days by those on the left, or more specifically New Labour loyalists. What is shameful is that very few in the political class could see it and no one could make a coherent intellectual argument against it. There's plenty of clever clogs popping up now, with a nobel prize winner claiming to have the cure the other day, but they were nowhere to be seen in the fantasy-based glory years.
 
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icebreaker said:
Do you honestly think that I am referring to the lowly £20,000 per year teller when I accuse "bankers" of the arrogance, incompetence and greed which has brought Europe to the brink of economic calamity?
Come on, now, fella.

What I have an issue with is your attempt to fabricate a favourable image of culpable bad bankers at the top responsible for this mess by saying that 95% of ordinary bank employees were/are blameless.
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I was referring to the general use of the term ice-breaker, not your specific use.

And I'm no defender of Bank execs or the dysfunctional punters in their Investment arms either. I'm merely suggesting that they receive a disproportionate amount of blame - which is somewhat convenient for the other guilty parties involved.
 
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