Frost vs Dunne

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Is there an appeal? If so, I just wish that he (along with people the other side of the argument) would have waited until this had run its course
 
trudij said:
In the week of my 16th birthday, at my first racing job I was raped by one of the lads. By the time I was 18 I was in a job putting up with the trainer groping me and making lewd remarks any time he could get me on my own - I stayed purely because I loved the horses and wanted to make their lives a bit better if I could. I even went along with it in the hope that would make it stop - it didn’t.

I was young - it was different times. Women were shown the same amount of respect that tanlic has for them on this thread. The lady jockeys didn’t get treated much better - the assumption was because we rode horses we were up for riding anything that felt like it. I don’t know if I’d have the guts to do what Briony did these days even with the knowledge that most people have dragged themselves out of the 1950s - it takes actual bravery to start something you know you’ll have to see through to the end, regardless of what the end actually is. There’s still the dilemma of is there any point - that’s why Kirsty had such an issue asking for views on the situation with the guy she worked for - and to see so many of you men back us up gives a huge amount of confidence to do what’s right.

It’s not telling tales out of school - it’s standing up for your self respect, your pride and standing up to someone who is out to belittle you and humiliate you in the only way he has - it’s all about putting the little woman in her place and it’s wrong. It’s not just wrong now - it’s always been wrong but it’s only in the last few years that women have been able to be listened to and supported.


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Trudi,

This is a very brave post. I am so sorry to hear what you went through and you so young at the time. I would like to think that things have improved in the majority of yards but I'd imagine that there are still a lot of young girls in the industry having to deal with the sort of **** that has no place in any work environment.

Eamonn
 
chroniclandlord said:
I only saw the Aidan Coleman interview late last night. It was nearly as bad as Alain Cawley's on Thursday.

I don't understand how these guys don't get how bad they sound.
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I know it’s absolutely ridiculous on my part, but the attitude of the jockeys has put me right off the whole scene. Cancelled out on Newbury this week (daft, I know), but I just can’t bring myself to go.
 
Let's also hope that if there is an appeal it gets fast tracked because the decision has been made and Dunne has been found guilty but just as importantly Frost has been vindicated. The BHA cannot now drag their heels if they are going to have a lot of answering to do on procedures, timelines, burying their heads in the sand etc etc. Historically much of this is down to them not addressing matters they should have eg considering it acceptable that female jockeys have to enter male jockeys changing facilities.
 
2017diary said:
Historically much of this is down to them not addressing matters they should have eg considering it acceptable that female jockeys have to enter male jockeys changing facilities.
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I don't read much about what goes on behind the scenes but this is one thing that truly astounded me.

I can remember when Meriel Tuffnell was the trailblazer for women jockeys nearly 50 years ago and had always presumed separate changing facilities have been in force since then.

As for the item in the article above about men often showing off (implied) their bits, I find that hard to accept. I played football for organised teams from the age of about eight until my mid-50s (last outdoor game 2011) and have NEVER seen any team-mate show off, regardless of how well-endowed they were. Quite the opposite, to be honest. While nearly all of us did walk about the shower area naked, if my own personality is anything to go by, we did so rather than be seen to be shy by wrapping a towel round ourselves. From memory, most of us got the important bits dried as quickly as possible and got into our Ys before finishing off the drying process.

So the idea of guys showing off their nakedness is quite alien to me.

I would be extremely uncomfortable to be naked in front a woman.
 
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trudij said:
In the week of my 16th birthday, at my first racing job I was raped by one of the lads. By the time I was 18 I was in a job putting up with the trainer groping me and making lewd remarks any time he could get me on my own - I stayed purely because I loved the horses and wanted to make their lives a bit better if I could. I even went along with it in the hope that would make it stop - it didn’t.

I was young - it was different times. Women were shown the same amount of respect that tanlic has for them on this thread. The lady jockeys didn’t get treated much better - the assumption was because we rode horses we were up for riding anything that felt like it. I don’t know if I’d have the guts to do what Briony did these days even with the knowledge that most people have dragged themselves out of the 1950s - it takes actual bravery to start something you know you’ll have to see through to the end, regardless of what the end actually is. There’s still the dilemma of is there any point - that’s why Kirsty had such an issue asking for views on the situation with the guy she worked for - and to see so many of you men back us up gives a huge amount of confidence to do what’s right.

It’s not telling tales out of school - it’s standing up for your self respect, your pride and standing up to someone who is out to belittle you and humiliate you in the only way he has - it’s all about putting the little woman in her place and it’s wrong. It’s not just wrong now - it’s always been wrong but it’s only in the last few years that women have been able to be listened to and supported.


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Geezus girl I am talking about someone having a fall on a favourite and half a dozen jockeys clubbing togather accusing him of taking a bribe or jumping off..all in jest in jest.
or if he brings someone down them saying through the rails is where you're going..how much did you have on the winner. All harmless banter that went on every day.

Quite frankly if you had gone to the police they would have treated you with respect and the guy would have possibly gone to jail....but you stayed despite a trainer groping you at every opportunuity. How is that standing up for your self respect?

I never in all my years came across a trainer like that and any stable lad or jockey who assualted a girl in my time would have been absolutely battered by the other lads.

I'm sorry for what happened to you but none of the lads I knew would have done something like that without knowing they would have been cast out.
 
You clearly didn’t read my posting then about the sexual harassment case I was involved in. Funnily enough I saw one of the other women this guy had done the same to and we had a good chat about it. I hadn’t really had an in depth chat with her before about all the things he said and did to her and it was eye opening.
It continues to go on in racing yards. IIRC a prominent trainer of sprinters took his own life within the last few years as he was facing a rape charge from at least one girl in his yard.
 
Diamond Geezer said:
Regardless of whose side you're on, this is worth a read

https://medium.com/@notnownancy/frost-v-dunne-the-awkward-truth-176a6d182caa
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Some good points in there, but I don't agree with her summation that punishment should not be the end result for him in the form of a ban. He's been deemed guilty of breaking the rules that apply to his profession four times. Rules which are subject to consequences, which is a ban from riding. He knew that. If he didn't then maybe that's part of the problem. If an incident had happened and someone, David Bass maybe for an example, said to both of them 'guys, come on, yes whatever , but let it go' and nothing else happened, would never got as far as it did. But he didn't. No one did. And Dunne, having got away it once, carried on. And on. More than 4 times. So why shouldn't he face consequences instead of counselling sessions? Lessons in how to behave as a human being in his chosen workplace? Don't agree with that at all. It's why you only get one Driver Awareness course in 3 years. Everyone ( sic ) knows the consequences of speeding on more than one occasion within a certain amount of time. If someone continues to do it in total disrepect of the rules of the Highway, they're going to get banned, have no excuses and no reason to complain that someone else, i.e local constabulary enforcing the law have cost them their livelihood if they can't do their job any more without a license. His situation is no different.
 
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Tanlic said:
Geezus girl I am talking about someone having a fall on a favourite and half a dozen jockeys clubbing togather accusing him of taking a bribe or jumping off..all in jest in jest.
or if he brings someone down them saying through the rails is where you're going..how much did you have on the winner. All harmless banter that went on every day.

Quite frankly if you had gone to the police they would have treated you with respect and the guy would have possibly gone to jail....but you stayed despite a trainer groping you at every opportunuity. How is that standing up for your self respect?

I never in all my years came across a trainer like that and any stable lad or jockey who assualted a girl in my time would have been absolutely battered by the other lads.

I'm sorry for what happened to you but none of the lads I knew would have done something like that without knowing they would have been cast out.
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Theres a big difference between an accidental sighting and having it deliberately thrust at you - that is the entire point that you are deliberately choosing to ignore from what’s happened. It wasn’t just a bit of banter The general banter that you’ve described hasn’t ever been the issue - but you’ve chosen to ignore half of the issue completely.

That’s fine - the rest doesn’t fit with what you think of women and the situation generally.

Rape charges are barely ever taken to court even these days because it’s difficult to prove and certainly not back then - you really don’t get it and don’t want to even try, so there’s no point trying to make you. It’s not entirely your fault - a lot of men of your era don’t understand, but that doesn’t mean it’s something that didn’t happen - it happens less these days, thankfully most men have moved on, but it most definitely does still go on. Telling the police isn’t as simple as you think - and as for me choosing to stay at the yard, yes - I did, I saw him beat my horses up daily - My love for them outweighed what I was putting up with from him. Does that mean I was asking for him to force his hand down my trousers or up my shirt any time he got me on my own? Most definitely not. I could have lay naked in the middle of the yard with my legs open and it STILL wouldn’t make it ok for him to grope me.


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What do you mean what I think of women? I am a huge fan of women riders especially Jamie Kah and Rachel Blackmore

You worked for a trainer who continously groped you and beat the sh** out of his horses and said nothing.

One word to the RSPCA of such behaviour and they started an investigation immediately

A certain trainer in Scotland was warned off for for mistreating horses 30 years ago. I was friendly with one of his daughters and I know it was an inside job on who reported him.

The name was never disclosed but that person loved the horses and hated his ways with horses and went straight to the powers that be...That is caring for horses not standing by and watching it happen and doing nothing.
 
Love u Trudji. Don't engage with him.

ps..Hope Mr. Dunne's brother has plenty of funding for his libel defense if he can't stand up every letter of that shite.

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One word to the RSPCA of such behaviour and they started an investigation immediately

If you have anything to do with the RSPCA sums you up!
 
an capall said:
Love u Trudji. Don't engage with him.

ps..Hope Mr. Dunne's brother has plenty of funding for his libel defense if he can't stand up every letter of that shite.

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The fact that he thinks 17/18 year old me didn’t try to stop it just sums it all up - he’s not worth my time. he doesn’t and never will get it - it doesn’t fit with his idea of life back then so he doesn’t want to even consider there was an alternative to the perception.
As I said - the whole thing was a power trip using the only thing the trainer had that was always going to be more than mine - his physical strength.

I can’t make anyone believe that’s what it was like and I sure as hell can’t make anyone understand who has no care to.


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trudij said:
Oh look - here it is not happening again….

https://www.racingpost.com/news/dis...Ka9s2lDIzUVa-qxwrw4vFbBILBRtC3vgHPPzPULkTiNuk


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Do you think we can go back thirty years and report all we went through? :lol: And every woman in racing who has struggled to get somewhere? There wouldn’t be enough time left by the time they had picked over the first couple of months!

I can’t begin to say I was ever in Trudi’s situation but the name calling (sl*t, sl*g, c*nt and the most vile split *rse) on a daily basis does wear a bit thin after a while. I once got a full bucket of wet horse sh*t thrown full in my face because I stood up to a lad (I can still taste it). I got thrown against a barn wall for answering back to the Assistant trainer in one yard (I was female and he had a personal vendetta against us...he’s now a Breeders Cup winning trainer but I have never worked with a more unpleasant sexist guy) in front of three lads and the vet.....and had serious bruising as a result. I was constantly told I couldn’t do....because I was a girl. Oh yeah and we got paid considerably less....for doing the same job!
 
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Janthefish said:
One word to the RSPCA of such behaviour and they started an investigation immediately

If you have anything to do with the RSPCA sums you up!
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Were you there, I was and the RCPCA was highly repscted at the time.

Out of almost a million reports of animal cruelty in the 70's and early 80's the RSPCA investigated around 200,000 them and half of those ended in prosecultions.

In this particular case they sent investigators out taking photos, discretely talking to staff and onece they had enough information they were part and parcel of the trainer being banned for years

He was in fact a brilliant trainer but his mentality regarding horses were if they were uselss they weren't worth his time and effort and he basically neglected them.

You tarring everone who works with the RSPCA now or back then with the same brush sums you up.

If you or anyone doubt anything I am saying about the case I am happy to PM you/them the name of the trainer.
 
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My last word on this is what allegedly happened to Trudij was horrendous and someone should have been thrown in jail, others thrown out of racing but it was a thousnad times worse than what happened to Broyony Frost.

If Bryony was a stable girl employed to muck out and not a top female jockey this would never have got the publicity nor would Dunne have been banned.
At worse he would have been taken aside and given a stern talking too


As it is the BHA Jolly well have to be seen to do the right thing..she's a star and we (The BHA) get a big feather in our cap.

People say she has done wonders for women jockeys to me she has set the game back years
IMO should have handled this like a man (Excuse the pun) and sucker punched Dunne in the face in front of the entire weiging room when he tried to be a smart ass.


She would have gotten more support from her fellow jockeys than she will ever get now.

Right now she has very few friends in the weighing room as her actions affects everyone and that is unlikely to unfortunately change.

This will get worse an the me too brigade will now come out like Trudji has and racings reputation will suffer greatly
 
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